My new "DIY" pads...

What I would want to see is consistent gap to the edge of the cup on all tone holes. That preference would be about tidiness and perceived quality rather than function or expected life.

I could speculate on what other people might prefer but that would be based on nothing.

Rhys
Attention to detail is attractive
 
Making Yamaha Vito tenor pads today...

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Magnets primed ready for key cups...

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Body ready (top)...

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Nickel keywork cleaned ready for pads...

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And I'm making a second set of pads with a softer sealing material just to demonstrate a different "feel" and a quieter action. Standard pads mimic feel and "pop" of traditional ones. Top and bottom stack pads can all be switched in around 5 minutes. No new adjustment or regulation needed if they are height adjusted to copy the first set, as these will be...

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Oh... and a bit of modern art...

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More soon...
 
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Be interesting to hear whether the bigger refelctors make much of a difference to the sound. I remember when I got my 1970s Buescher Aristocrat re-padded. It originally had pads with no reflectors in. Putting in standard reflector pads maed a significant difference. I've pondered in the past whether bigger than standard reflectors will change the sound again.
 
As Drew plays tenor (Ref 54) and Gerard alto (Buffet S1) I plan to take the Vito to Drew for a test play. I'll get another video if possible.

I hopefully have a pro Selmer coming as a further test bed which I'll take round to Gerard's.
 
What I would want to see is consistent gap to the edge of the cup on all tone holes. That preference would be about tidiness and perceived quality rather than function or expected life.

I could speculate on what other people might prefer but that would be based on nothing.

Rhys
Here's another idea...

I'll cut the stainless backing discs with a uniform gap to the edge of the key cup, as preferred by those here. It's the backing disc that tilts to level the pad as a whole.
Let's say the cup is 47mm diameter internally and the backing disc is 46mm.
The tone hole is 42mm in this example.
Then... I apply a ring of sealing material 6mm wide centred on the tone hole rim (i.e. OD 45mm, ID 39mm).
This gives a built in reflector (the shiny backing disc's centre) of 39mm diameter inside the sealing ring, and also a small reflector surface outside the ring. How's that?

Or... would you prefer that the outer edge of the sealing ring coincides with the backing disc outer edge, but it still gives an inner built in reflector surface?

Ditching an extra applied flat or domed reflector saves weight and cost.

Flat is as good as domed... See differing reflector types test from World Wide Sax, here: https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/plastic-or-metal.186/?post_id=33363#post-33363

Comments?
 
Which have you done and pictured in post #326 above ? I would have no great preference between options, as long as it all looks aligned. But maybe if you try to have the seal go right to the edge it might be more likely to hang over it a fraction in some places or to peel up after a while.

If I understand your description this would mean that the "reflector" surface is now set below the sealing ring, by the depth of that ring. Would this have any effect on how well it reflects ?

Rhys
 
Post #326 has full disc coverage with a MM domed reflector attached.

The new backing adhesive on the sealing pad survived repeated cycles in the dishwasher. Applied to the disc edge I don't see it budging. There's no physical force here other than I manufacturing and installation handling. But it would be "safer" taking it inboard a MM or so as you say.

In practice tone holes are generally 2-3mm inside key cup edges but can be 1mm or 5mm from the cup edges as with measurements I've taken from five horns, so my example is at an extreme and generally the sealing pad would have to be near enough at the disc edge anyhow.

As for the reflector surface being 1mm below the sealing surface I can only see this being an issue right at the outer edge of this surface where reflected sound would bounce into the inner edge of the sealing ring. But we're talking maybe 1mm of muffled reflection here and the overall reflective surface would be far larger than standard applied reflectors so countering this.

Of more interest is added internal volume inside the body tube by the loss of pad surface and domed reflector. This is somewhat balanced by the protruding pad nut and a some screw thread and I should think a small mouthpiece adjustment on the neck would correct any tuning issues. A stamped "flying saucer" shaped backing disc integrating the dome and outer flat surface would be ideal but tooling for 40 diameters would be pricey.

There again, has anyone worried about changing a vintage horn with flat reflectors over to domed ones? The opposite effect, lost internal volume, applies. I've never heard of that being an issue, although I'd be losing a little more with some of the pad surface dropping down a further 1mm.
 
reflected sound would bounce into the inner edge of the sealing ring.
With respect, I don't think thinking about sound bouncing around inside the horn is a good way of analysing this.
The issue is deviation from the "ideal" - a perfect cone with perfectly smooth, elastic / reflecting (reflecting air molecules) surfaces.
Eg domed reflectors would produce a geometry deviation (as do tone holes anyway)... Maybe as a fraction of the volume at the tone hole; so more significant at the narrow top than on the bell.
Leather pads are significantly softer than brass .. so a % of leather covered by a reflector is a % closer to the "ideal".
 
Yes, that's why I want to increase the reflector size. But are there disadvantages also?
Imho it's a choice or art.
The "ideal" perfectly reflecting walled cone sax would sound very boring. The flavour comes from the imperfections... Within limits.
 
I think this may well be true. However I played a keyless soprano when I was at the Musikmesse. Just a cone and a mouthpiece so you could only play a Bb (I think). It sounded like a soprano.
I'd believe it. Which really goes to show that small differences are just that, small.
The tone holes are quite a large percentage of the total internal surface of the sax - so I can believe that covering the squidgy leather - or finger pads - with plastic or tin makes a difference; and it compounds the lower you go. But 1mm2*π more or less?
 
I think this may well be true. However I played a keyless soprano when I was at the Musikmesse. Just a cone and a mouthpiece so you could only play a Bb (I think). It sounded like a soprano.
This was a point I was going to make, and didn’t think that there would be much difference if any.
 
Just took a one owner SA80II alto in p/ex against my MkVII bari.

Am I brave enough to dig out its perfectly good pads and put mine in it?

Yep.

Might be a little while as there are a few ahead of it in transition...
 
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