Tech/maintenance My new "DIY" pads...

rhysonsax · Jan 13, 2022

mizmar said:
Just out of idle curiosity, couldn't a self-levelling pad system be made with some "stiffness" or friction so that they don't actually float freely and wabble when lifted, ie kept alignment; but with enough movement so that they alligned, if out of alignment, when contacting the chimney? Maybe a small ball-and-socket, tight enough so the pad doesn't move under force of it's own weight, but would move due to impact force.

That sounds like my one-of-a-kind tenor based on an SML with a "cut and shut" body tube and new mechanism, all done by Leopold Kondratov. Pictures here. and previous Cafe Saxophone thread here.

Each key cup pivots around a central ball and socket which can either be left loose to self level or be done up tightly once it has been set level.

Here is what Leopold's own website says (in English-ish) about the mechanism:

The new mechanics for saxophone Varioklappen- Mechanik was developed to make the adjustment of pads as precise and simple as possible. In the Varioklappen- Mechanik keys are attached to the mechanics with a ball joint. If a key is closed, it will automatically adapt to the ideal position to close the tone hole. Then the key can be fixed in this position by fastening a screw in the ball joint.

Advantages:

The pressure point for closing is exactly in the middle of the key and therefore extremely precise
Pads can be changed without demounting the mechanics. Keys can be clipped on and off easily
The adjustment of the pads can be done faster, easier and more precise. Special tools are not necessary
All types of pads can be used
Because of the very easy and fast adjustment of the keys, unusual materials as silicone and rubber can be used for the pads
The Varioklappen- Mechanik can be played with fixed as well as with movable attachment of the keys to the mechanics

Rhys

mizmar · Jan 13, 2022

mizmar said:
self-correcting pads^©®™
self correcting pads^©®™

Ivan said:
I bags selfcorrecting©®™ without the -

I'm sure there's a market for, ungrammatical, self correcting toilet paper, or whatever...

mizmar · Jan 13, 2022

rhysonsax said:
left loose to self level or be done up tightly once it has been set level

Ah, cool. But not self-correcting pads©®™. Here we're talking C21 stuff. It'll even have a app showing the angle of each pad 😀

The app would, of course, listen to your playing, process it with Shazam and send it all to Apple/Google/Amazon... A perfect business model.

DavidUK · Jan 13, 2022

mizmar said:
Just out of idle curiosity, couldn't a self-levelling pad system be made with some "stiffness" or friction so that they don't actually float freely and wabble when lifted, ie kept alignment; but with enough movement so that they alligned, if out of alignment, when contacting the chimney? Maybe a small ball-and-socket, tight enough so the pad doesn't move under force of it's own weight, but would move due to impact force.

Ermmm... isn't this what I have made happen? You describe it precisely, other than a ball and socket. Mine is half a ball, half a socket.
They do not float around when lifted but stay in their levelled position. If accidentally moved, when next closed they regain the tone hole level and stay there.
That's why the strong magnet is so ideal.
No manual tightening or loosening needed. It's automatic.

mizmar · Jan 13, 2022

DavidUK said:
isn't this what I have made happen?

I've no idea. But if so, then it answers Howard's issues, no?

DavidUK · Jan 13, 2022

I treat Steve as the ultimate sceptic Makes me think harder to try to overcome his fears, borne from experience in all things saxophone.

Targa · Jan 13, 2022

Stephen Howard said:
If you really want to push the innovative boat out, go for electronics.

This looks like it was some sort of attempt at that.

DE202014006961U1 - Electromechanical saxophone - Google Patents

Electromagnetic operation of a saxophone, characterized in that the conventional flap mechanism of a saxophone is replaced by closing mechanisms (3), which are controlled by stroke and tension electromagnets (1). By a push-button (4), the closing pulse is triggered. A lithium battery (5)...

patents.google.com

DavidUK · Jan 13, 2022

That application expired whilst pending. I did have a look at electro-magnetic devices, there was a thread a while back in which I pictured a power supply back pack, remember?
What's the point of powering something electrically to actuate what your fingers are already touching? Unless you're very weak perhaps?

squeak · Jan 14, 2022

DavidUK said:
I treat Steve as the ultimate sceptic Makes me think harder to try to overcome his fears, borne from experience in all things saxophone.

Just push on. Fingers crossed.

Targa · Jan 14, 2022

DavidUK said:
That application expired whilst pending. I did have a look at electro-magnetic devices, there was a thread a while back in which I pictured a power supply back pack, remember?

Don't be silly, I can't remember what I had for tea!

squeak · Jan 14, 2022

Stephen Howard said:
....and you're a bit flat past top A....

I really appreciate you including "top" in this sentence given that I play a baritone without low A.

Alphorn · Jan 14, 2022

There is Leo Kondratov in Munich who offers a rebuild with self leveling keys. His term is "Variomechanik"

Vario Keys by Kondratov

Here was an in detail article about this approach some time ago in Sonic, a German wind instruments magazin. Their conclusion is that the key action gives good feedback. Unfortunately you need to use Google Translator or comparable as there is no english version.

Sonic: Vario Keys

Alphorn

Stephen Howard · Jan 14, 2022

DavidUK said:
I treat Steve as the ultimate sceptic Makes me think harder to try to overcome his fears, borne from experience in all things saxophone.

They're not fears - I'm all for innovation, no matter where it comes from...but I don't see the point of rehashing an experiment that's been tried many times down the years and always ended in disappointment. It's not the method that's the issue, it's the practicalities and the results of it.

Stephen Howard · Jan 14, 2022

mizmar said:
Just out of idle curiosity, couldn't a self-levelling pad system be made with some "stiffness" or friction so that they don't actually float freely and wabble when lifted, ie kept alignment; but with enough movement so that they alligned, if out of alignment, when contacting the chimney? Maybe a small ball-and-socket, tight enough so the pad doesn't move under force of it's own weight, but would move due to impact force.

That sounds like a pad that's been glued to the key cup 🙂
I mean, what's the point? If a pad (of any kind) has been set in perfect alignment - why induce the possibility that it could go out of alignment (in any plane)? Why not just fix it in place once and for all?

mizmar · Jan 14, 2022

Stephen Howard said:
That sounds like a pad that's been glued to the key cup 🙂
I mean, what's the point? If a pad (of any kind) has been set in perfect alignment - why induce the possibility that it could go out of alignment (in any plane)? Why not just fix it in place once and for all?

Obviously, because then it wouldn't be a self-correcting pads©®™ 😉

But sure, if the critique of self leveling pads is "don't need", as opposed to "don't work" as in post #25, you'd have to ask David or Schmidt etc.

Phil · Jan 14, 2022

Im just glad mouthpieces dont have moving parts!

Phil · Jan 14, 2022

I prefer self-correcting.
Im into hyphenated terms. See avatar

DavidUK · Jan 14, 2022

Is it the case that leather pads always stay in alignment? In Tru-Seal's case Brandon there explained:

Our goal in designing the pads was to find something that was moisture resistant. Our main business is rental instruments used in school programs and we constantly run into pads that get rained on in marching bands. There also wasn't really any well regarded synthetic options for student flute and saxophones. So far we like what we've created, but are constantly on the hunt for materials that can improve our pads.

Read more…

Read more…

Read more…

Leather/felt/card pads get ruined and have to be replaced. Replacement is a skilled job and not one which can be accomplished in 5 seconds for each pad (or perhaps at all by me). Sure, I had to glue a magnet into each key cup but that's a one-off job, and I could do that. Also pad height setting and adjustment almost becomes fun when it's a mechanical operation with a screwdriver and spanner.

Of course my original incentive was to find a way for me, just me, to re-pad without going to a tech. This will appeal to a small minority of owners too. But it has speed advantages for the tech too IF they were to get bombarded by requests for the new pads. This will only happen if the pads are proven to be as good in play as the old ones.
If they are, then they have many other advantages not the least of which is that the synthetic seal will be unaffected by spit. You can even pop them out and clean them if you like. Quick wash and pop them back in.

And why is self-levelling a bad idea rather than poking at a glued leather pad trying to get it level? Many automotive, marine, and aeronautical devices use this technology.

Devised to fit existing saxophones needing a re-pad, I was surprised when one manufacturer explained to me that the place for these would ideally be in future manufacture, to save time in assembly, replace the outdated leather, and to then be able to accessorise pads with changeable resonators, sealing material (for feel'n'seal) and an owner's desire for experimentation and ability to customise their horn to individualise their sound. The backs of the discs could also be customised by colour, design, logo, etc.

Much of this is marketing hype perhaps, but I'm told by a guitarist (actually a synthetic material firm technical director) that the accessory market is huge in the guitar world. So as a commercial idea it's not so daft perhaps - if the pad itself, the basis for all of this, works well.

"Oh, I do fancy a set of those new Goodson corrugated or Madonna resos instead of my plain ones. I could change them myself perhaps? Nah, can't be bothered. I'll ask my tech to do it for me. Actually, I'll ask him to give the horn a clean and lube too."

Stephen Howard · Jan 14, 2022

DavidUK said:
But it has speed advantages for the tech too IF they were to get bombarded by requests for the new pads.

No it doesn't. The fundamental requirement for these pads to work is that the mating surfaces are dead flat.
That will require the toneholes to be levelled - and not just run over with a crusty old tonehole file. I mean really levelled...precisely. You'll also need to ensure there's no play in the action - at least if you don't want to suffer any delay in response while the pad sorts itself out.

DavidUK · Jan 14, 2022

Surely tone holes need to be level for leather pads? You don't seem to overlook uneven ones when doing a review.

Mine could be even better at accommodating unevenness. Or are you imagining them to be hard rubber?
They're not like Jim Schmidt's, demanding level tone holes or they won't work.