Tech/maintenance My new "DIY" pads...

jbtsax · Jan 16, 2022

mizmar said:
Blowing across the top of a hollow reed or bone was, probably, the first wind instrument innovation. Then; cutting them to length, then pocking holes, alternative sound generation... Then all hell broke loose with ... The Key... Should have stopped before that.

This reminded me of a quote by acoustician J. Backus in which he surmised the argument about materials instruments are made from probably started in early Stone Age circles with assertions that a flute made from a human thigh bone had a much better tone than one made from a stick of bamboo. 🙂

DartmoorHedgehog · Jan 17, 2022

Colin the Bear said:
The very first tone hole pads were on the fingers.

Ah but of course it's impossible to play anything fast or accurately on a clarinet or recorder because the "pads" are too soft and feel horrible 😉

mizmar · Jan 17, 2022

jbtsax said:
assertions that a flute made from a human thigh bone had a much better tone than one made from a stick of bamboo

the answer is, of course, easy. A flute made of reed carries the sounds of the winds blowing through the marshes, lakes and rivers. The flute made of a thigh bone carries the sounds of the winds of the bones' owner. Your choice.

DavidUK · Jan 17, 2022

DartmoorHedgehog said:
Ah but of course it's impossible to play anything fast or accurately on a clarinet or recorder because the "pads" are too soft and feel horrible 😉

Apart from very thick synthetic seals for the pads, around 2mm, I've found it very difficult to "feel" much difference between materials around 0.7 - 1.1mm thick. A squidgy feeling sheet, when pressed with a finger, loses its squidginess when it's hitting all of the circumference of a metal ring.

DartmoorHedgehog · Jan 17, 2022

DavidUK said:
Apart from very thick synthetic seals for the pads, around 2mm, I've found it very difficult to "feel" much difference between materials around 0.7 - 1.1mm thick. A squidgy feeling sheet, when pressed with a finger, loses its squidginess when it's hitting all of the circumference of a metal ring.

My comment was intended as a tongue-in-cheek dig at the earlier remarks that any softness or "give" in the pads (to allow for uneven tone holes) makes it impossible to play at anything above beginner level.

I think your magnetic pads are a really interesting experiment. I see where Mr Howard is coming from with his "loads of people have tried this sort of thing before and it's never worked" angle, and normal saxophone pads do work perfectly well if fitted properly and the mechanism is adjusted properly, but the attraction of a self-adjusting pad that doesn't need reworking after somebody puts the case down a bit heavily when loading into a gig or whatever is definitely there IMO - If it plays acceptably for whoever is playing the sax. I'm not a "see how many notes I can fit into each bar" type of player, so it may well be for me that less chance of leaks and potential lower maintenance trumps having the ideal feel (whatever that is). I'm not sure there'd be a big enough market for you to make any money from it, but that's no reason not to try things.

Colin the Bear · Jan 18, 2022

I predict a Chinese version before you can get to market. 😉

DavidUK · Jan 18, 2022

...or a Kent variant?

Phil · Jan 18, 2022

The Chinese will copy it once it makes money. The ali express version of china is not that terribly innovative. They dont want to sell a new idea. They prefer to piggyback on existing success and marketing.

Steve Marshall · Jan 18, 2022

The idea seems similar to the Top -Tone pads. They also chopped away key cups. I'm told they butchered a number of vintage horns, so that idea gets the hackles up.
One of th eissues with Top-Tone pads was that they reacted to the tone hole surface. I'm not sure if it was the lacquer or the metal itself but there's some sort of reaction that occurs. I've not seen that sax for a while to see what the long term effects may be.
The other issue with Top-tone pads was the tone. It's hard to describe but it was different - a bit softer and, well a bit 'plasticky'.
Neoprene pads have been used to good effect on clarinets. Those pads are available for saxophone too, though I haven't seen them. Woodwind & Co fit them. They say it took years to develop something that worked on sax.

DavidUK · Jan 18, 2022

Steve, the Tru-Seal pads fitted to my prototype Jupiter are Neoprene and took a while for them to select.

The Top-Tone pads seem to be neoprene too. Some info here: https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/toptone-neoprene-pads.51675/
Still seem to be available. Pricey though: Toptone Disks - De Saxofoonwinkel

I haven't yet cut into the Jupiter keys, but may well do so.

I also bought a Beaugnier tenor which I've stripped of its old pads and plan to fit my system to. I won't be cutting it up though. Like you I try to rescue vintage horns.

I looked at Woodwind & Co pads. Certainly they're synthetic with "several different materials inside", but Eddie seems rather secretive and why not if he's trying to make a living out of fitting them. Maybe I could do the same? :w00t:

PigSquealer · Jan 19, 2022

@DavidUK
do your homework on health risks. I don’t know if any saxophone players using a pacemaker but……..

Wonko · Jan 19, 2022

PigSquealer said:
@DavidUK
do your homework on health risks. I don’t know if any saxophone players using a pacemaker but……..

are you referring to the magnets?
I am no expert, but I don't think the magnetic field from those magnets could upset pacemakers. You'l probably get a MUCH more powerfull electromagnetis field from using a reel of extention cord that isn't completely unwound.

DavidUK · Jan 19, 2022

Neodymium magnets have been found to interfere with pacemakers at close proximity. Bigger (by volume) magnets interfered at a maximum 3cm in this study: Potential interference of small neodymium magnets with cardiac pacemakers and implantable cardioverter-defibrillators - PubMed

It's unlikely one of my smaller magnets would come this close but it's a good idea to add a health warning to any end product.

PigSquealer · Jan 19, 2022

DavidUK said:
Neodymium magnets have been found to interfere with pacemakers at close proximity. Bigger (by volume) magnets interfered at a maximum 3cm in this study: Potential interference of small neodymium magnets with cardiac pacemakers and implantable cardioverter-defibrillators - PubMed

It's unlikely one of my smaller magnets would come this close but it's a good idea to add a health warning to any end product.

A couple weeks ago I did something stupid barefoot. I ended up with metal splinters in my foot. My dent magnet worked perfect pulling them out. Ever seen a player taking a rest with their sax across their chest??

The box the magnet came in had warnings all over it.

Targa · Jan 19, 2022

DavidUK said:
Neodymium magnets have been found to interfere with pacemakers at close proximity. Bigger (by volume) magnets interfered at a maximum 3cm in this study: Potential interference of small neodymium magnets with cardiac pacemakers and implantable cardioverter-defibrillators - PubMed

It's unlikely one of my smaller magnets would come this close but it's a good idea to add a health warning to any end product.

As it's mechanical - 'Might contain nuts'.

PigSquealer · Jan 19, 2022

Wonko said:
are you referring to the magnets?
I am no expert, but I don't think the magnetic field from those magnets could upset pacemakers. You'l probably get a MUCH more powerfull electromagnetis field from using a reel of extention cord that isn't completely unwound.

Let’s hope you are correct. Meanwhile I don’t care to donate any of my friends to test the theory. Best just to disclose the information on a box and be done with it. Product liability management.

PigSquealer · Jan 19, 2022

Targa said:
As it's mechanical - 'Might contain nuts'.

Tree nuts ? :rolleyes:

Not intended for children under the age of 18 or pregnant.

nigeld · Jan 19, 2022

I have a pacemaker. At my last checkup I was asked about a contact I had had with a magnet - the pacemaker had detected something. It turned out to have been at a rehearsal with the doors and windows open for Covid and a strong draft. I had used whiteboard magnets to clamp my music to the stand, and they had come close enough to trigger the pacemaker.

As I understand it, a strong magnet does not harm the pacemaker but it unlocks it so that it can be re-programmed at the pacemaker clinic using near-field radio in order to change operating parameters. So a pacemaker near to a strong magnet is potentially vulnerable to reprogramming by random radio signals. My experience with the whiteboard magnets suggests that a saxophone hanging from a neck strap could be close enough to unlock the pacemaker. I have no idea how likely it is that reprogramming would actually happen - I presume it is very unlikely (and it didn't happen in my case) but I would prefer not to take the risk.

PigSquealer · Jan 19, 2022

Wow ! I guess that answers that question.

nigeld · Jan 19, 2022

Another potential problem with pacemakers (and this is speculation on my part).

I presume that as part of "unlocking" the pacemaker, the magnet causes its radio receiver to switch on in order to receive commands from the controller. Radio receivers can use quite a lot of power. If the saxophone triggers the switch then an hour's practice a day might cause significant battery drain, thus requiring early replacement of the pacemaker.

The battery in my pacemaker is supposed to last about 10 years normally. The battery is necessarily quite small. The pacemaker sits under the skin, and replacing the battery requires a minor surgical operation to replace the whole pacemaker box.

(The first pacemaker in the world was huge, and the batteries had to be replaced every 3 months.)