Saxophones C Melody Saxophones

[LostCircuits]

High-pitch instruments are not usable with modern, fixed pitch instruments tuned to today’s standard of
A=440 Hz. Pulling out the mouthpiece to lower the pitch doesn’t work: it has nowhere near enough travel to
bring a high-pitch instrument down to A=440. The instrument is simply built to a different scale.
That gap matters most for instruments that are fixed in pitch — another saxophone, a brass instrument, a
standard piano, or a fretted guitar or mandolin tuned to concert pitch. None of those can meet a high-pitch
horn even halfway. Instruments, especially digital, with continuously adjustable tuning are a different story: a
keyboard or synthesizer with a transpose or global-tuning control can often be set to match high pitch, and
an acoustic guitar, mandolin, or upright bass can usually be re-tuned down far enough (the gap between
A=452 and A=440 is under a quarter tone, well within the range most stringed instruments can be de-tuned
and still sound normal).
But be aware: a high-pitch C melody is physically narrower than a low-pitch one. Practically speaking, it

can’t be modified to be tuned to a low pitch sax, standard piano, church organ, brass section, or any mixed-
instrumentation jam session where you can’t ask everyone (who can) to re-tune their instruments. But in a

small acoustic group of players who are willing to meet you partway — guitar, mandolin, upright bass, or a
keyboard with adjustable tuning — it’s possible to make it work. It comes down to communication: know who......


Sorry, but there are a few fallacies in the bold section:
It is easy to pull out the MP to bring an HP instrument to A=440 Hz. The problem is though, that the instrument is no longer in tune with itself because pulling out the MP affects the upper notes (closer to the MP) much more than the lower notes that are farther away from the MP. As a consequence, the lower notes will play sharp and the high notes will play flat.

With guitars or mandolins, fretted or not, it does not matter, they can easily be adjusted to any pitch that is reasonable for the instrument, there are many professional players who tune their instrument up or down by more than a half step, so adjusting to HP is a very easy thing to do if the player agrees to it.

Also, MIDI instruments can typically be tuned to any desired pitch.

Narrower? I don't think that is true, they are shorter than LP instruments but if they were narrower (I think you are referring to the bore) that would bring the pitch down again.

Last point, to the best of my knowledge, there is no standard for HP either, some are A=447, some are 450, 452 or 457Hz, and some of that will depend on the maker or model or the vintage.

p.s. any good player will also be able to bend the notes to be in tune with an LP ensemble. The first alto of the Contemporary Colorado Springs Big Band borrowed my 1898 Conn HP alto to play one song with the big band and blended in seamlessly but it requires a very experienced player to do so and, it is a lot of work but the unique tone of the instrument made it worth the effort.

 

[turf3]

High-pitch instruments are not usable with modern, fixed pitch instruments tuned to today’s standard of
A=440 Hz. Pulling out the mouthpiece to lower the pitch doesn’t work: it has nowhere near enough travel to
bring a high-pitch instrument down to A=440. The instrument is simply built to a different scale.
That gap matters most for instruments that are fixed in pitch — another saxophone, a brass instrument, a
standard piano, or a fretted guitar or mandolin tuned to concert pitch. None of those can meet a high-pitch
horn even halfway. Instruments, especially digital, with continuously adjustable tuning are a different story: a
keyboard or synthesizer with a transpose or global-tuning control can often be set to match high pitch, and
an acoustic guitar, mandolin, or upright bass can usually be re-tuned down far enough (the gap between
A=452 and A=440 is under a quarter tone, well within the range most stringed instruments can be de-tuned
and still sound normal).
But be aware: a high-pitch C melody is physically narrower than a low-pitch one. Practically speaking, it

can’t be modified to be tuned to a low pitch sax, standard piano, church organ, brass section, or any mixed-
instrumentation jam session where you can’t ask everyone (who can) to re-tune their instruments. But in a

small acoustic group of players who are willing to meet you partway — guitar, mandolin, upright bass, or a
keyboard with adjustable tuning — it’s possible to make it work. It comes down to communication: know who......


Sorry, but there are a few fallacies in the bold section:
It is easy to pull out the MP to bring an HP instrument to A=440 Hz. The problem is though, that the instrument is no longer in tune with itself because pulling out the MP affects the upper notes (closer to the MP) much more than the lower notes that are farther away from the MP. As a consequence, the lower notes will play sharp and the high notes will play flat.

With guitars or mandolins, fretted or not, it does not matter, they can easily be adjusted to any pitch that is reasonable for the instrument, there are many professional players who tune their instrument up or down by more than a half step, so adjusting to HP is a very easy thing to do if the player agrees to it.

Also, MIDI instruments can typically be tuned to any desired pitch.

Narrower? I don't think that is true, they are shorter than LP instruments but if they were narrower (I think you are referring to the bore) that would bring the pitch down again.

Last point, to the best of my knowledge, there is no standard for HP either, some are A=447, some are 450, 452 or 457Hz, and some of that will depend on the maker or model or the vintage.

p.s. any good player will also be able to bend the notes to be in tune with an LP ensemble. The first alto of the Contemporary Colorado Springs Big Band borrowed my 1898 Conn HP alto to play one song with the big band and blended in seamlessly but it requires a very experienced player to do so and, it is a lot of work but the unique tone of the instrument made it worth the effort.

I'm not sure who's quoting whom in this, but it is INCORRECT to say you can tune a HP instrument to LP. The scale - the spacing of tone holes - is defined by the design-intent pitch. Anyone who doubts this needs to go back to 1870 and re-read Boehm's Flute and Flute-Playing.

Of course if you're willing to work very very hard you can pull way way way out and lip the 99% of grossly out of tune notes to be kinda sorta in tune, but that's BS. AN HP HORN CAN NOT FEASIBLY BE PLAYED IN TUNE AT LP.

Claiming otherwise is like claiming that it's feasible to tune a guitar by moving the bridge instead of tightening the strings.

This is basic physics.

 

[Greychatter]

High-pitch instruments are not usable with modern, fixed pitch instruments tuned to today’s standard of
A=440 Hz. Pulling out the mouthpiece to lower the pitch doesn’t work: it has nowhere near enough travel to
bring a high-pitch instrument down to A=440. The instrument is simply built to a different scale.
That gap matters most for instruments that are fixed in pitch — another saxophone, a brass instrument, a
standard piano, or a fretted guitar or mandolin tuned to concert pitch. None of those can meet a high-pitch
horn even halfway. Instruments, especially digital, with continuously adjustable tuning are a different story: a
keyboard or synthesizer with a transpose or global-tuning control can often be set to match high pitch, and
an acoustic guitar, mandolin, or upright bass can usually be re-tuned down far enough (the gap between
A=452 and A=440 is under a quarter tone, well within the range most stringed instruments can be de-tuned
and still sound normal).
But be aware: a high-pitch C melody is physically narrower than a low-pitch one. Practically speaking, it

can’t be modified to be tuned to a low pitch sax, standard piano, church organ, brass section, or any mixed-
instrumentation jam session where you can’t ask everyone (who can) to re-tune their instruments. But in a

small acoustic group of players who are willing to meet you partway — guitar, mandolin, upright bass, or a
keyboard with adjustable tuning — it’s possible to make it work. It comes down to communication: know who......


Sorry, but there are a few fallacies in the bold section:
It is easy to pull out the MP to bring an HP instrument to A=440 Hz. The problem is though, that the instrument is no longer in tune with itself because pulling out the MP affects the upper notes (closer to the MP) much more than the lower notes that are farther away from the MP. As a consequence, the lower notes will play sharp and the high notes will play flat.

With guitars or mandolins, fretted or not, it does not matter, they can easily be adjusted to any pitch that is reasonable for the instrument, there are many professional players who tune their instrument up or down by more than a half step, so adjusting to HP is a very easy thing to do if the player agrees to it.

Also, MIDI instruments can typically be tuned to any desired pitch.

Narrower? I don't think that is true, they are shorter than LP instruments but if they were narrower (I think you are referring to the bore) that would bring the pitch down again.

Last point, to the best of my knowledge, there is no standard for HP either, some are A=447, some are 450, 452 or 457Hz, and some of that will depend on the maker or model or the vintage.

p.s. any good player will also be able to bend the notes to be in tune with an LP ensemble. The first alto of the Contemporary Colorado Springs Big Band borrowed my 1898 Conn HP alto to play one song with the big band and blended in seamlessly but it requires a very experienced player to do so and, it is a lot of work but the unique tone of the instrument made it worth the effort.

Great feedback... thanks! For my purposes, I don't want a deep dive into the science and engineering. My goal is to ensure potential buyers are aware that vintage horns offer this difference, that HP will likely make their journeys more complicated, and here's how to tell the difference. So I've restructured the content, and have represented the technical discussions by adding links to both scientific and anecdotal resource sites around HP/LP. I've also added more content on new production horns, as I think it was too vintage weighted overall. Here it is updated. (I know my index page numbers are off and a few photo credits are missing; things I'll fix.):

Haphazard_Guide_to_C_Melody_Saxophones_v14_EDITED.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[LostCircuits]

I'm not sure who's quoting whom in this, but it is INCORRECT to say you can tune a HP instrument to LP. The scale - the spacing of tone holes - is defined by the design-intent pitch. Anyone who doubts this needs to go back to 1870 and re-read Boehm's Flute and Flute-Playing.

Of course if you're willing to work very very hard you can pull way way way out and lip the 99% of grossly out of tune notes to be kinda sorta in tune, but that's BS. AN HP HORN CAN NOT FEASIBLY BE PLAYED IN TUNE AT LP.

Claiming otherwise is like claiming that it's feasible to tune a guitar by moving the bridge instead of tightening the strings.

This is basic physics.

It might help if you read my post

 

[turf3]

It might help if you read my post

I did. There are so many quotes and quotes of quotes and quotes of quotes of quotes all in the same font, that as I clearly stated in the first sentence, I can't tell who's quoting whom and who's disagreeing with whom. What I have to say about high pitch woodwinds is clearly stated. If you agree with me, great. If you don't, then I guess we disagree.

 

[turf3]

Great feedback... thanks! For my purposes, I don't want a deep dive into the science and engineering. My goal is to ensure potential buyers are aware that vintage horns offer this difference, that HP will likely make their journeys more complicated, and here's how to tell the difference. So I've restructured the content, and have represented the technical discussions by adding links to both scientific and anecdotal resource sites around HP/LP. I've also added more content on new production horns, as I think it was too vintage weighted overall. Here it is updated. (I know my index page numbers are off and a few photo credits are missing; things I'll fix.):

Haphazard_Guide_to_C_Melody_Saxophones_v14_EDITED.pdf

drive.google.com

Yeah, I think "cannot be feasibly played in tune with any fixed-pitch modern instrument and requires everyone to tune way off normal" would be "complicated". Personally I would recommend against acquiring a HP instrument unless one is highly experienced and has a specifically identified use case for it that does NOT include trying to play it with LP instruments.

 

[jcn664]

High-pitch instruments are not usable with modern, fixed pitch instruments tuned to today’s standard of
A=440 Hz. Pulling out the mouthpiece to lower the pitch doesn’t work: it has nowhere near enough travel to
bring a high-pitch instrument down to A=440. The instrument is simply built to a different scale.
That gap matters most for instruments that are fixed in pitch — another saxophone, a brass instrument, a
standard piano, or a fretted guitar or mandolin tuned to concert pitch. None of those can meet a high-pitch
horn even halfway. Instruments, especially digital, with continuously adjustable tuning are a different story: a
keyboard or synthesizer with a transpose or global-tuning control can often be set to match high pitch, and
an acoustic guitar, mandolin, or upright bass can usually be re-tuned down far enough (the gap between
A=452 and A=440 is under a quarter tone, well within the range most stringed instruments can be de-tuned
and still sound normal).
But be aware: a high-pitch C melody is physically narrower than a low-pitch one. Practically speaking, it

can’t be modified to be tuned to a low pitch sax, standard piano, church organ, brass section, or any mixed-
instrumentation jam session where you can’t ask everyone (who can) to re-tune their instruments. But in a

small acoustic group of players who are willing to meet you partway — guitar, mandolin, upright bass, or a
keyboard with adjustable tuning — it’s possible to make it work. It comes down to communication: know who......


Sorry, but there are a few fallacies in the bold section:
It is easy to pull out the MP to bring an HP instrument to A=440 Hz. The problem is though, that the instrument is no longer in tune with itself because pulling out the MP affects the upper notes (closer to the MP) much more than the lower notes that are farther away from the MP. As a consequence, the lower notes will play sharp and the high notes will play flat.

With guitars or mandolins, fretted or not, it does not matter, they can easily be adjusted to any pitch that is reasonable for the instrument, there are many professional players who tune their instrument up or down by more than a half step, so adjusting to HP is a very easy thing to do if the player agrees to it.

Also, MIDI instruments can typically be tuned to any desired pitch.

Narrower? I don't think that is true, they are shorter than LP instruments but if they were narrower (I think you are referring to the bore) that would bring the pitch down again.

Last point, to the best of my knowledge, there is no standard for HP either, some are A=447, some are 450, 452 or 457Hz, and some of that will depend on the maker or model or the vintage.

p.s. any good player will also be able to bend the notes to be in tune with an LP ensemble. The first alto of the Contemporary Colorado Springs Big Band borrowed my 1898 Conn HP alto to play one song with the big band and blended in seamlessly but it requires a very experienced player to do so and, it is a lot of work but the unique tone of the instrument made it worth the effort.

The ONLY "high pitch" that it could play with modern is instrument isnt really "high pitch" if my remember is exactly is really very old Adolphe sax horn.

Because at this période we talked high pitch for A=445 and low pitch for A=438

But it's in reality standard pitch and not high pitch that we really want to talk,

We can't forget one thing the concept of pitch changed with different period of time.

 

[LostCircuits]

We can't forget one thing the concept of pitch changed with different period of time.

That's pretty much what I said above.

And the current 440Hz reference was essentially set because it was the easiest number to do the math for the other notes. So we have yet another intertwining of music and math here.

 

[turf3]

Well, 445 is what we might properly call "the high end of standard pitch" and 435 is what we might properly call "the low end of standard pitch". True high pitch is more like 452.

You can work pretty hard and get a 445 horn down to 440 or get a 435 horn up to 440. But a 452+ horn isn't going to work.

Of course you can choose to go through a wide variety of gyrations to get a 452 horn to be only badly out of tune rather than INSANELY out of tune. But there's no actual value in doing so unless, as I noted, one is an experienced collector and/or has specific identified purposes for such a horn.

In YOUR case jcn664, you're a collector specializing in historical instruments. So if a historical instrument is made to an obsolete pitch standard, you still learn about its deisgn, fabrication, and character.

But 99% of the sax players out there want to use their instrument in various musical applications, playing along with pianos, other woodwinds, etc. For that you need something designed for 438-442.

Like I've said, as woodwind players we're stuck with a tuning method that is exactly analogous to tuning a guitar by moving the bridge up and down. Well, every guitar player knows that if you do that, you'll wreck the scale of the guitar. But that's what we do, we don't shift the tone holes when we adjust our tuning. So, there is a LIMITED range of pitch for which a particular horn will be internally in tune.

 

[turf3]

That's pretty much what I said above.

And the current 440Hz reference was essentially set because it was the easiest number to do the math for the other notes. So we have yet another intertwining of music and math here.

I dunno, whatever you're doing you're multiplying and dividing by the twelfth root of 2.

And this, children, is where LOGARITHMS come in, so you aren't actually taking th twelfth roots of numbers, you're using log tables.

I'll be honest, I'd have to sit down with a piece of paper and pencil and work out how to do this. Ever since the scientific calculator became standard, about in tenth grade for me, using log tables and calculations has dropped completely out of standard practice. But that's how the old guys did it. That's why the CRC math tables, and Machinery's Handbook, and the CRC Chemistry Handbook, and so many others, started out with a big section of log tables.

 

[PigSquealer]

Anyone actually have a HP C to measure ? The maker and date if known. I would like to add to this chart.

FWIW in my limited experience. I have seen very few C melodies in HP that were American made. Those were all of Conn make and maybe one in a thousand.
European makes that were imported to US as stencile like Carl Fischer. Zero found. European & UK domestic product is very mixed. Unless it’s stamped LP. Assume it’s HP.

 

[PigSquealer]

Here’s a thought / question.
If the intended use of a C Melody was home entertainment alongside a piano.
What were American & European home pianos turned to ?
It’s my understanding the application need for HP was outdoor large venue playing.
But why at home ?

 

[PigSquealer]

Just to let others know, I got to try all sorts of old horns including a Saxello and a C melody; both of which I'd never given a go before.

Posting my question here from your post above reply to @LostCircuits post below. Miscellaneous - Your Favourite Picture Of You Playing

And my question is…..what did you think about playing a C Melody ? Did it live up to all the lore? Stuffy and unfit ?
I have no doubt this was a different experience for you. Hope you lasted longer than ten minutes without dying of laughter

 

[mark_addy]

Posting my question here from your post above reply to @LostCircuits post below. Miscellaneous - Your Favourite Picture Of You Playing

And my question is…..what did you think about playing a C Melody ? Did it live up to all the lore? Stuffy and unfit ?

With my (former work-life) acoustics head on, that sounds wierd to me. I can see why (say) a short-scale bass with 'normal' strings on it is odd to play if tuned concert, because the string tension feels wrong. But an air column is an air column. I could certainly imagine (as a guess) that C-mels went out of fashion at a time when the mouthpieces made for them were of a style which modern players tend not to prefer. Goodness knows I have a few of those for A-T-B. Feeling motivated today, I might even get out the production paper / stiff steel rule / feeler guages again... 🙂

 

[jcn664]

@PigSquealer my futur c melody beaugnier is that

 

[jcn664]

 

[jcn664]

I will pay 350€, i will go the 05 octobre, the 6 october it's my birthdays and my surprise is this first beaugnier in my collection
C melody with curved neck not straight neck

Really good price

Do you ever see before @PigSquealer

 

[jcn664]

Curved neck, not straight neck, very differently of the Vito, maybe 50-60 serial number, i have this serial number

 

[jcn664]

If you have any information

 

[Grumps]

And my question is…..what did you think about playing a C Melody ?

Playing the variety of saxophone voices over the years, I'm compelled to advise others to pay a soprano like a soprano. An alto? Like an alto, of course... and so on and son for tenor and bari. You play a tenor like a tenor and you play a bari like a bari. Each has it's own strengths and uniqueness and they are not plug and play.

So with that said, do I play a C melody like a C melody? Well, considering my base in this regard is non-existent... I chose to play that C melody... like Frankie Trumbauer. For about fifteen seconds.