Saxophones YTS-61 for beginner with one year's experience?

[mizmar]

When you are ready to upgrade, say in a year (or maybe tomorrow?), you should go somewhere and play many different pro horns.

That was my original plan. Get good enough to make a session in a big store meaningful.
Now, I can't be bothered.

 

[cappers]

With THAT said, I would certainly agree that if a player's goal is to darken (or brighten, or smooth out, or paint-peel or whatever) their tone, this can be done to a significant degree by mouthpiece selection. And it would probably be a sufficient degree to satisfy a lot of people .

As I have found, the Soloist E is warmer than the 5C, and as easy to blow. Working hard on my breath support and trying different reeds I have found a combo that produces a sound I like, deeper/warmer and less edgy.

If you want to make changes it's down to either changing the mouthpiece or (less so) the crook - or a heck of a lot of practice.

I mentioned in another thread that I and others think that my Vito 23 has a slightly darker/rounder/mellower (?) sound than the YTS-25. @Steve Howard mentioned the neck (neck/crook - is this a UK/US thing?) can make a difference tonally and putting the Vito neck on the 25 does make it less bright, reducing the sparkly edge it seems to have, without making it sound dead. Guinness v lager?

With only a year under my belt my sound needs more development but I know where I want to go, and the best and cheapest way is more practice (long tones, voicing et al.) a good mpc and an appropriate type and strength of reed.

Presently, I find the '25 with the Vito neck, Soloist E and BBS Black 2.5 is my preference. Why not the Vito and Vito neck if it sounds the same as the above? Because the '25 just feels a little bit nicer especially the left pinkie table. The Vito is almost mint, the '25 has a well used look - not nearly as much as the '61 above - but the '25 feels just right, I'm really comfortable on it. No issue with Vito, it's great but somehow the '25 makes me want to pick it up.

Footnote, re Vito v Yamaha necks, I'm sure I read somewhere on the 'net, wish I had saved it, someone stating that Vito Pascucci had Yamaha change the spec of the neck for the Vito cloned '23s to make them darker, more classical. Might be an urban myth but there does seem to be a difference to me.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[ellinas]

I had a Vito tenor..it's a 23.with different lacquer colour. It was a pristine exemplary one. Great sax. I gave it as a present to a younger family member 🙂. I bought it years ago through cafesaxophone from @jonf. If you ever want to get rid of your Vito message me. The 23s are so neutral, light and their layout SBAish ... They are just delicious.

 

[LostCircuits]

@cappers , there is one reason for a beginner to start with a beginner horn, which is that almost inevitably you will bump into something, until having the horn in your hands becomes somewhat second nature.

Once you are past the "infant-clumsiness" there is really no point in cutting corners and upgrading to an intermediate instrument, unless that's all you can afford. Get the best gear you can afford, stick with it and learn how to maximize your results without hunting for the blue flower/unicorn or whatever.

 

[cappers]

............If you ever want to get rid of your Vito message me. The 23s are so neutral, light and their layout SBAish ... They are just delicious.

I do love my 23/5s and they do everything I want and capable of a lot more.
I was being silly, on FB checking band business and it popped onto the feed and I got thinking (dangerous!).
I'm never going to be good enough to warrant a pro sax. As you and Stephen Howard say they are neutral so can be made brighter or warmer. It's not really an issue and I will learn to control it.

I used to go to Greece (Loutraki via Athens) every year running a first year environmental sciences field course. Loved it, the scenery, the people and vibe, the food, Mythos. Wasn't learning the sax at the time otherwise I would have popped in to see you!

 

[cappers]

.....
Once you are past the "infant-clumsiness" there is really no point in cutting corners and upgrading to an intermediate instrument.....

I'm well past "infant clumsiness", more like "geriatric clumsiness"

Actually I am almost OCD about handling, cleaning and caring for my horns but point taken

 

[Jimmymack]

@cappers, I think you have it sorted out. These things happen to all of us, you can just about afford it and the mythos around a particular horn starts working on you. Will it make me better? No, not in any way that makes that much difference and you've spent a bunch of cash for no real advantage. Stick with what you have until you really know that you want a change and know what you want, give it another year or two at least.

I know somebody who plays a no name cheap alto and he has a really good tone and is a pleasure to listen to, I know several people who have expensive horns, top level Yamahas and Yannis, and they sound mediocre. One guy in particular kept switching up and still sounds the same as he ever did and nothing like as good as the guy with the £600 Chinese sax.

Mouthpieces are an option but they are an even bigger money pit unless you know what you want and I definitely caution against chasing that bunny.

Also, I would never buy a horn without playing it first.

 

[Ghr9204]

Here is something else @Pete Thomas mentioned in a recent thread, his being hired by Yamaha to provide instructional training videos. He was given a Yamaha student model to do the training with. Don't remember the exact model, but like a -23, -25, etc., but mentioned that he was impressed on how well it played.

I like this particular comment, particularly its end:

it's down to either changing the mouthpiece or (less so) the crook - or a heck of a lot of practice.

If the -23, -25 is good enough for a pro, then perhaps after a heck of a lot of practice, you may be ready for that move up horn? 😀

 

[cappers]

Thanks @Jimmymack

I didn't think I'd succumb to GAS but it crept up on me!

Not going to go down the mpc rabbit hole either. The 5C and Soloist are fine for me.

As usual putting my deficiencies down to gear rather than me!

 

[skeller047]

I'm never going to be good enough to warrant a pro sax.

I think this is muddled thinking. A “pro sax” is not different from the saxes you have, it’s just somewhat better made, keywork will be slicker and it will have a tonal complexity that is not present on your 23/5. There is no reason an adult with the correct budget shouldn’t own a “pro horn”. You don’t “warrant” a particular saxophone, it’s just a matter of if you can afford it.

People often buy student level instruments because they are not sure whether they will like the experience. With you, it turned out more like “Mr. Duck, here’s some water for you.” Given that, you would enjoy a really great instrument. Just don’t buy one Willy-Nilly; do your research and try stuff out.

I repeat my earlier advice. It’s good to play different instruments. You may learn something. I just spent 3 days walking my poor decrepit old self for miles around a trade show trying different saxophones. Do I need a new one now? No. Might I learn something from the experience? Yes, I might and did. I now have better information on some saxophones I was curious about, and feel more confident to make recommendations.

I don’t want to talk you out of buying a “pro” sax. But I don’t want to talk you into it either. But as to whether you “warrant” it, that’s strictly between you and your wallet. (And maybe a significant other…)

 

[Colin the Bear]

I lost my gas for quite a while. 9 altos 3 tenors 2 sops and two baritones in. It's bubbling away again at the moment. Yani, Yam. TJ? So many shiney shiney shiney.

Don't buy anything to make you a better player, but don't not buy it if you can afford it, have room for it and WANT IT. 😉

 

[LostCircuits]

You can always stack them. Unlike muscle cars... Mr @PigSquealer

 

[Greg Strange]

Here's the late great David 'Woody' Woodford rockin' a Yamaha YTS-61...he played one for over 40 years...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDXIy6OeCZg&list=RDaDXIy6OeCZg&start_radio=1


Greg S.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Here is something else @Pete Thomas mentioned in a recent thread, his being hired by Yamaha to provide instructional training videos. He was given a Yamaha student model to do the training with. Don't remember the exact model, but like a -23, -25, etc., but mentioned that he was impressed on how well it played.

Yes it was fine. I had previously owned a YAS 62 and I could find no fault with the YAS 23 they gave me, no reason why I could not use it professionally. In fact on gigs I have used a hired in YTS 23 and if I didn't know it was a so-called "student instrument" I would not have presumed so.

 

[thomsax]

It is a bit scruffy but I've heard it play and it has a richer warmer sound than the YTS-23/25. I know that most of the sound is down to the player but I believe the YTS-61 is renowned for its more old school tone, less 'contemporary' sound.

,Yes, a YTS 61 is "darker" compared to YTS 23/25. Yamaha showed the way to the new sax sound with thier 62, 32 and 23 models. You can always make a sax darker with mouthpiece, ligs, reeds, playing technique ..... or just by think and being "dark" when you play.

My questions are: (I give you my reflections although I'm not a good player.)

• being a 'pro' model would a beginner with one year's playing experience find it more unmanageable intonation-wise than the YTS-23/5?

No. Intonation problem is most of times down to the players. A good player find out ways to cover a bad sax intonation.

• would it be easier to play e.g. slicker and smoother? Blowing resistance like the 23/5? I don't find the 23/5 difficult but have heard the key action on the higher-end models is better.

Maybe? The materials are better on a 61 compared to a 23. And the treatment the gave the 61 at the factory back then, was better as well.

• would it be a help or hindrance to my progress?

To play a good sax is always better. But it's not always what is stamped or engraved on the sax.

• am I being silly and should stick to the YTS23/5 and learn to darken/warm the sound more or would this be a good (and only) horn for me? (I'll have to flog the 23/5s)

If your 23/25 are not causes you any problems, you can continue on these saxes.

I like Yamaha 61 tenors. One of the players I used to play with was on a 61. An allround sax; classic, jazz, blues, rock ... like the old Mk VI. He never had any proplem to blend in. For 15 years ago I wanted an easier sax life when it comes to own an play the sax I decided to rest my Martin tenors and I bought a YTS 25. I wanted a YTS 23/25 because I decided to have it in for an annual service (clean, oil and adjustment + ev change three pads ). An easy way to own a sax. But in long run rather expensive ..... .

 

[cappers]

@thomsax Thanks for your reply.

Now I am getting a bit 'better' I find I can darken the tone of the 23/25 using appropriate mpc, reed, embouchure, breath control and by thinking 'dark'. When I first heard this I couldn't understand how thinking would affect the timbre but it seems to work!

The ergos on the 23/25 are fine for me The first time I picked it up it felt just right for my hands and fingers. It is a very good sax, as other far more capable players than me have said, and will do for me. I really enjoy playing it, not heavy, easy to blow and feels good.

I fell into the classic beginners' trap....if I get a 'better' sax, I'll play and sound better

 

[thomsax]

fell into the classic beginners' trap....if I get a 'better' sax, I'll play and sound better

I became a better player when I started to use harnesses. To have something hanging around your neck and play sax .... .

 

[cappers]

I became a better player when I started to use harnesses. To have something hanging around your neck and play sax .... .

I generally use a Cebulla neck strap at home as it's easier but for a gig I wear a Jazzlab. It's more comfortable than the neck strap and I like the way it holds the sax in front of me but it's never felt 'just right'. There are some Ballam-type PRC clones on Amazon for a few quid and I might try one.

 

[Zasterz]

Now I am getting a bit 'better' I find I can darken the tone of the 23/25 using appropriate mpc, reed, embouchure, breath control and by thinking 'dark'. When I first heard this I couldn't understand how thinking would affect the timbre but it seems to work!

It’s called “voicing” and it works much like if I were to ask you to imitate Mickey Mouse or Goofy or Eeyore, you would modify your oral cavity to sound like them. You would do this intuitively, but it involves raising or lowering the larynx and/or soft palate, how you articulate, various physical things that you needn’t actually try to think about because you’ve gotten used to using your voice. This is why it’s so important to listen and play along to saxophonists that you enjoy- it starts that intuitive ball rolling.

 

[cappers]

Beginning to understand the concept of voicing, like 'singing' the note.
Tried this recently on Fly Me To The Moon (I know the words!)
Rather than just playing the notes and blowing I 'sung' the words in my head my tongue and throat responded as if I was singing or whistling. I'm sure what came out was more fluid?

I love this journey of discovery and experimentation.