Saxophones YTS-61 for beginner with one year's experience?

[JayeNM]

All I know is I play a Conn 6m and had to switch to a loaner YAS23 for 4+ months while it was being serviced. After the first couple of days of the YAS seeming quite different/brighter than my 6m, I started getting closer and closer to my regular tone— without doing anything deliberate, just playing as usual— and so much so that recordings made around that time are difficult to tell apart from my 6m recordings— I have to double-check the date to be sure which horn it was. It’s certainly not night and day, despite these being two very different horns.

Just because someone demonstrates the “70% difference” in the two horns when picking up and switching between them, that doesn’t mean that were they to play the horn for a while they wouldn’t end up with their same baseline tone. Bottom line seems to me to be that you develop in your head the sound you want and as you spend time playing you naturally gravitate back towards that sound, regardless of horn. In general it seems to me less effortful working with a brighter setup and darkening it rather than trying to get a dark setup brighter.

1) I doubt greatly that most people with a pretty decent ear would not be able to identify the 23 from the 6M in your recordings, assuming again you didn't switch up the mouthpiece setup, change the recording mix, and deliberately try to blow one warmer & the other one brighter than the other.
Again, two different pieces of hardware, produce two different intrinsic tonalities.
So if you literally did zero deliberately, and achieved taking the high edge off of the 23, cool....but I would bet my wallet most folks can tell what is the 23 and what is the 6m. You may be 'as happy' with the tone of one as the other, but I doubt you brought the 23 so close it is undistinguishable.

2) You say: " Just because someone demonstrates the “70% difference” in the two horns when picking up and switching between them, that doesn’t mean that were they to play the horn for a while they wouldn’t end up with their same baseline tone".
That is a specious argument....you are literally implying that it is 'automatic', no thought or intent needed, to 'make' one horn sound, tonally, like the other.
It's an opinion, sure, but all you are doing is positing something which likely is ersaatz.

"A player can adjust to the horn and make it sound as they like"...is in no way a counter or disproving of the reality that "horns have different intrinsic tonalities".

Nor is it synonymous to:

"A player can adjust and make one model horn (with a relatively dramatic polar tonality to another) sound like the other with little or no effort at all, just naturally.

Yet the latter is what you are intimating. That is a shaky thing to state based on your personal experience of two models.

IOW - you switched for the 6M to the 23...and you are happy that you were able to remove the edge of brightness from the 23.
That doesn't mean it sounds like the 6M.
It means you utilized the 30% wiggle room to get the sound out of the 23 which you are happy with.

Yeah, one can blow 'dark' on a 23 and make it sound (thankfully) NOT like a 23. Whether you did that with intent or not, you did it.

But should one apply whatever their "blow dark" thang is....on a 6M or a JK....and they will also have massaged the tonaility of the latter two.

 

[Zasterz]

1) I doubt greatly that most people with a pretty decent ear would not be able to identify the 23 from the 6M in your recordings, assuming again you didn't switch up the mouthpiece setup and deliberately try to blow one warmer the other one brighter than the other. Again, two different pieces of hardware, produce two different intrinsic tonalities. So if you literally did zero deliberately, I would bet my wallet most folks can tell what is the 23 and what is the 6m. You may be 'as happy' with the tone of one as the other, but I doubt you brought the 23 so close it is undistinguishable.

2)" Just because someone demonstrates the “70% difference” in the two horns when picking up and switching between them, that doesn’t mean that were they to play the horn for a while they wouldn’t end up with their same baseline tone".
That is a specious argument....you are literally implying that it is 'automatic', no thought or intent needed, to 'make' one horn sound, tonally, like the other.
It's an opinion, sure, but all you are doing is positing something which likely is ersaatz.

"A player can adjust to the horn and make it sound as they like"...is in no way a counter or disproving of the reality that "horns have different intrinsic tonalities".

Nor is it synonymous to:

"A player can adjust and make one model horn (with a relatively dramatic polar tonality to another) sound like the other with no effort at all, just naturally.

Yet the latter is what you are claiming.

IOW - you switched for the 6M to the 23...and you are happy that you were able to remove the edge of brightness from the 23. That doesn't mean it sounds like the 6M. It means you utilized the 30% wiggle room to get the sound out of the 23 which you are happy with.

Whatever I did with the “wiggle room,” it wasn’t as deliberate as you make it out to be. I merely used my ear to make it sound the way I prefer. After an initial acclimation period, I would have gladly continued to use the 23 to get the sound I enjoy. That’s all that matters, imo. (Unfortunately I no longer have the 23 otherwise I would post some clips to illustrate.)

 

[JayeNM]

Your core tone always reverts.

Only to the degree that the piece of hardware in your hands allows it to revert.

Because the natural harmonics of one model, let's call it a dark-toned model, are within a zone or flexibility range which their design dictated. And that of another horn, let's call it a bright-toned one, is withing the zone and flex range that is dictated by its design specs.

PLus if your core tone always reverts then why do so many players, including incredibly accomplished ones, buy horns because of their tonality ?

According to your hypothesis, it shouldn't even be a factor because the player is so empowered that they can assign the tonality to the instrument. Yet players do not toss aside tonality when comparing and choosing a horn. Many, many might actually sacrifice one aspect (say faster action) in order to possess the other (say a big, fat, wide tone).

Your core tone may always revert...but that doesn't mean the end sonic/tonal result on two different models possessing a not-too-close intrinsic tonality.....will be the same.

 

[JayeNM]

Whatever I did with the “wiggle room,” it wasn’t as deliberate as you make it out to be. I merely used my ear to make it sound the way I prefer. After an initial acclimation period, I would have gladly continued to use the 23 to get the sound I enjoy. That’s all that matters, imo. (Unfortunately I no longer have the 23 otherwise I would post some clips to illustrate.)

You said it wasn't deliberate.
I actually accepted it wasn't deliberate. Note I wrote : 'whether you did that with intent or not..."

What matters is you were able to utilize the flex allowed to the player to make you happy with the tone.

I would still bet that ...again with all other variables constant in those recordings...the 23 does not sound like the 6M...is all. And I'd bet that most listeners would be able to tell that.

That they both 'sound like YOU playing"...is another aspect entirely,...

 

[Stephen Howard]

Only to the degree that the piece of hardware in your hands allows it to revert.

Truth be told the impact of the body tube on the tone pales into insignificance compared to the mouthpiece.
But - what most good players strive for is transparency. This is why I don't play a Selmer. I know what tone I want and I want to get it with the least amount of work. If I have to make an effort to override a fat midtone then that's work I don't want to be doing. So I choose horn that best facilitates my core tone.
But I have the abilty to play pretty much any horn and makes it sound like 'me'. It's all about how easy it is to do that.
And when you find yourself spending half a day trying to decide whether a Martin Handcraft or a YTS-23 is the better bet, that's when you realise just how little difference the body makes. I stuck with the 23...but only because it had a more responsive and lively top end. And a better action.

I find that if you approach a horn with solid preconceptions ("(thankfully) NOT like a 23") then you're at an instant disadvantage. Not my style - YMMV.
I've alway said that the last thing you should look at is what stamped on the bell.

 

[skeller047]

It’s not just tonal differences that make a saxophone better or worse for the player. Does it fit ergonomically? How responsive is it? How does it make you feel when you play it? These intangibles are hard to quantify, and vary from person to person. That’s really the reason to try different horns.

 

[JayeNM]

Truth be told the impact of the body tube on the tone pales into insignificance compared to the mouthpiece.

I never wrote "body tube" alone. The video I alluded to proves that the contribution to the tone is determined largely by the design specifications of the horn...this goes beyond body tube, and includes neck, bow, etc.

This is clearly demonstrated by that video...same player, same room, same recording device and mixdown, same mouthpiece and reed...the resultant tonalities are anything but the same.

Something folks seem to overlook (not directed at you here necessarily) is that I completely acknowledge setup selection can have an effect and not an insignificant one. I also acknowledge that embouchure changes and breath support tweaks can do the same.

In regards to @Zasterz sharing of his experience, I can completely accept that with no conscious effort to 'make' the horn sound one way or another, after settling in and acclimating to the newcomer, there would be a synergy which leans the horn towards a sound which it may not have initially been showing.

But internet lore over the years has assigned a %age to that...and the %age, again often bandied about, is just absurd. I have read 75%-95%...and that is just bewildering. This is why I tend to get a bit...excited (arguably over-excited) when I come across comments veering in that direction.

Also... think these convos get into a distinction which needs to be made, a distinction of semantics.

I...do not see "I can make any horn sound like me" as synonymous to "I can make any horn sound like any other horn".
I do think people confuse or interchange these two things sometimes, thus they come up with comments like "the sound of the horn is 90% the player and 10% the horn"...which again, at best...leaves some things in such sentences 'ill-defined' (as in "please clarify what you mean by "sound").

And at worst, is plain misleading.

If we are talking about "sound"..."my sound"...etc....THAT encompasses far more than the tonality of the hardware. Because now we get into "that sounds like THIS player playing"...and a lotta other musical things come into that...phrasing, note selection, stylistic stuff.

I...in discussing this topic...am talking about tonality, solely. Literally the sonic tone coming out of the horn. It does not address the player's signature style or identity. I completely mean the tonality. Is it dark, bright, spread, focused, "fat", "thin", reedy, smooth, etc ?

Regarding preconceptions....if they are based upon pretty solid observations, the preconception may well be completely valid and not a hindrance at all. If an instrument has a reputation as "bright" or "contemporary"-toned, then it likely did not get that reputation completely capriciously.

Thus...if a player isn't into that sorta tonality...rather than reply:

"I suggest you toss that aside totally, don't worry about the intrinsic tonality of the horn at all because the player is totally empowered to change it to whatever they like"

A more astute and probably helpful reply would be:

"Yeah, man if you don't dig that bright sorta tone....then probably stay away from THESE horns and look into THOSE models".

So, taking your example...if the 23 isn't floating your boat on its tone, and the Martin IS....you didn't MAKE THAT UP out of thin air. The Martin IS actually producing a tonal quality that the 23 is NOT. To claim otherwise, again, one would be pushing their own agenda and ignoring their own ears.

And again, as support I will cite the plethora of comments from players of every level which are along the lines of "yeah, the action was better on A but TTYT the tone of B just hands-down was what I wanted".
Those are not "mistakes"...those cannot really be responded to with "ohhhh, but you COULD have gotten the tone of B by playing A if you just changed this and that !"...with any certainty.

Once again if that were true, then everybody should just be buying and playing a Yamaha 475 or 480 because the intonation and reliability and ergonomics are absolutely dialed in...and the "tone thing" is something independent of the horn, almost completely dependent upon the player.

Yet...people do not do that....

 

[cappers]

My only experience of tenors other than the YTS 23/25 is my teacher's TJ Custom Raw.
Sounds lovely but was a bit heavier, very nice under the fingers, a bit different ergonomically esp the left pinkie table.

Thing is, bright edge or not, I really like my 'student' 23 and really feel at home on it. If it were not for my neighbour I'd practice and play much more. As it is an hour and half hour a day is pushing the boundary a bit.

Just playing it has such a therapeutic effect on me. I'm normally a happy-chappy, not depressive or world weary (mess as it is). Nevertheless playing just lifts me up, puts a smile on my face, warmth in my heart, a skip in my step. Fulfils me. Sounds ooby-dooby-hippy-dippy but that's how I feel.

 

[JayeNM]

Thing is, bright edge or not, I really like my 'student' 23 and really feel at home on it. If it were not for my neighbour I'd practice and play much more. As it is an hour and half hour a day is pushing the boundary a bit.

Just playing it has such a therapeutic effect on me.

OK, great, because your initial post stated you felt that moving towards a 'richer, warmer tone' was attractive to you.....which is why I suspect this thread has garnered the sorta responses it has.

But if that is not the case, and you are not unhappy with the tone of your 23/25's....you rather just had a momentary curiousity about whether another model would sound different enough to maybe give you a charge....then I would suggest you not necessarily cast that aside.

Dunno your locality but sometimes it can be fun just to get to the nearest horn shop (assuming it sells a few different brands - something harder and harder to find in a walk-in store these days)...and bring your mouthpiece and test a few out....if for no other reason that to see the potential variety, sonically as well as otherwise.

 

[Colin the Bear]

A better saxophone will not make you a better player but it can make you a happier owner.

 

[JayeNM]

A better saxophone will not make you a better player but it can make you a happier owner.

It can also inspire a player, sometimes.....(sometimes not, but sometimes).

 

[cappers]

@JayeNM

your initial post stated you felt that moving towards a 'richer, warmer tone' was attractive to you..

I suppose being a novice my feelings change as I develop. For months the sound I made was the output of my lack of a developed controlled embouchure and good breath support i.e thin, nasal and bright.

Recently after a year of practising, using a different mpc and reeds and much better control my sound has become warmer and fuller.

What sparked it off is the noticeable difference between the Yama and the Vito Yama. Trial and error indicates it the neck/crook as putting the Vito neck on the Yam 25 takes some of the bright edge away and makes it overall warmer. My wife and teacher noticed it too.

and you are not unhappy with the tone of your 23/25's....you rather just had a momentary curiousity about whether another model would sound different enough to maybe give you a charge....

Not unhappy anymore as I'm learning to make it sound the way I want.
When I saw the 61 I just wondered for a moment.........!

I sense you are not overly fond of the 23/25 but for an old git like me it is fine

 

[Zasterz]

I guess bottom line is some of us actually really like the YAS25 and some don’t. My teacher, a pro who mainly plays tenor (Mark VI) plays a YAS25 on the occasion he plays alto and it sounds great. There’s nothing “nonprofessional” about it.

 

[Stephen Howard]

"I suggest you toss that aside totally, don't worry about the intrinsic tonality of the horn at all because the player is totally empowered to change it to whatever they like"

A more astute and probably helpful reply would be:

"Yeah, man if you don't dig that bright sorta tone....then probably stay away from THESE horns and look into THOSE models".

You mean like this one, from earlier in the thread?

"It's also the case that if your goal is a mellow and less bright tone it might be worth considering other horns. Something like a used Bauhaus M2 or a TJ SR would be a very good bet. If you want to stick with Yamaha then I would suggest that a 32 (the poor man's 62) would be a good option. Same body tube as the 62 and a bit less edgy than the 23."

Like I said about not paying too much attention to what's written on the bell - if you only see and hear what you want to see and hear you end up wasting an awful lot of time.
But not mine.

 

[thomsax]

I guess bottom line is some of us actually really like the YAS25 and some don’t. My teacher, a pro who mainly plays tenor (Mark VI) plays a YAS25 on the occasion he plays alto and it sounds great. There’s nothing “nonprofessional” about it.

It's a common way to "identify and socialize" with persons you teach. It's the sax student that is in focus, not the teacher. My firend is using a YAS "Vito" alto instead of his Mark Vi alto when he is teaching. I (former restaurant and kitchen teacher) used the same types of knifes and tools as the students I taught.

 

[Zasterz]

It's a common way to "identify and socialize" with persons you teach. It's the sax student that is in focus, not the teacher. My firend is using a YAS "Vito" alto instead of his Mark Vi alto when he is teaching. I (former restaurant and kitchen teacher) used the same types of knifes and tools as the students I taught.

I play a Conn 6m. As I said, my teacher plays the YAS25 live when he needs to play alto. His tenor is a Mark VI, which is what he plays in our lessons. The 25 is no slouch.

 

[thomsax]

I play a Conn 6m. As I said, my teacher plays the YAS25 live when he needs to play alto. His tenor is a Mark VI, which is what he plays in our lessons. The 25 is no slouch.

Sorry, I misunderstood. A lonly sax player can play a student sax slightly out of tune at a live Rock gig. we get a more charming live feeling!?!?! The Yamaha student saxes are very professional in the the hands of a person who can play and master a sax.