Beginner Saxes Yamaha 4C vs. 5C

[JayeNM]

....Maybe they just want to provide a mouthpiece with a new horn, so that they seem a better value to other brands that don't include a mouthpiece? So they include their cheapest mouthpiece...

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[JayeNM]

I think the reason they provide a 4C, or 4CM is that it's a perfectly good mouthpiece and most players will be able to use this if they wanted to, regardless if they are a beginner or otherwise.

Pretty much any sax player would be 'able to use' a 4C....but how many players, with a few years under their belt....do ? Not many, really.

Which is to say given the choice (which we all have)...most, after using one for a while in order to develop from a beginning player.....move on. Usually because they seek something which will either respond better to their blowing, or because they want something which provides something more tonally. A plethora of brands and models fitting both requirements are out there and have been for a long time.

So yeah one can use it as an intermediate or beginner-intermediate player...I have one or the other (5C) here all the time to use as a tester on my serviced/refurbed horns...but oftentimes once folks have the basics under their fingers and with their embouchure, they start seeking something which will give them more...

It's interesting what you pointed out - I find it odd Yama would include a 4C with their upper shelf horns, but the explanation is likely that they produce more 4C's than any other mouthpiece and being a reputed maker with relatively huge sax sales, they want to include a new stock mouthpiece with their horns like others do.

 

[Domin Abbus]

Thanks all.
After reading your comments, I'll go out and get myself the 5C (possibly the 6C), and consider the stock mouthpiece as a pair of white gloves <gd&r>
I'll let you know how I get on. I am not afraid to fail, only afraid to not try.

---
gentleman (noun): someone who knows how to play the saxophone, but refrains from doing so.
me: does not know how to play the saxophone, but still insists.

 

[Colin the Bear]

A used yam mouthpiece will sell on very easily and quickly.

 

[nigeld]

I’ve been on a jazz course this week. One of the particpants was a newish saxophone player who had difficulty reading notes. but who had a really nice full rich tone, She was playing on a 4C.

 

[mizmar]

I am not afraid to fail, only afraid to not try.

Succeeding or failing won't be determined by having a 4/5/6C!!

 

[ellinas]

The fact that many players brag about their wide mouthpieces as if it's an achievement is beyond me. A wise mouthpiece could fit a certain horn or a certain embouchure or a certain style.
Most advanced classical players and many traditional jazz players played quite closed tip mouthpieces. There's nothing wrong with closed mouthpieces. The 4C may be not anyone's bag BUT it's quality and purpose is second to none. The CMs that come with pro horn are totally different and feel like selmer replicas. I personally like the C line on any saxophone I tried. It's not that flexible or it might not have a complex sound but it ticks every box for a mouthpiece for everybody and anybody.
I don't know any other mouthpiece that plays with all stubborn horns newer or vintage ... It's easy to blow ... And let's the player think less ... Play more ... And progress....

I'm not any special player but I always have a C mouthpiece in my instrument bag. It maybe a 5 or 4 or 6 I don't really care.... It's my swiss army knife mouthpiece ..... And I'm really glad that I progressed as a beginner using them and not a fancy mouthpiece that would hold me back ... It's an emotional bond. It's the only piece of sax related equipment that absolutely never let me down.... Ligatures ... Reeds... Saxophones.... Are something totally different....

 

[Saxlicker]

Thanks all.
After reading your comments, I'll go out and get myself the 5C (possibly the 6C), and consider the stock mouthpiece as a pair of white gloves <gd&r>
I'll let you know how I get on. I am not afraid to fail, only afraid to not try.

---
gentleman (noun): someone who knows how to play the saxophone, but refrains from doing so.
me: does not know how to play the saxophone, but still insists.

You'll get away with (and that sounds like I'm not giving it the respect it deserves) a 5C for a long time. Then one day you will be tempted by something of a similar tip opening that that suddenly appears to offer much more complexity of sound. For instance a Vandoren Java A35 or A45 or something from any more expensive maker considering how cheap the Yamaha piece is.
Then you world will change again.
But it's a fine piece that will do you no wrong!

 

[lydian]

The fact that many players brag about their wide mouthpieces as if it's an achievement is beyond me. A wise mouthpiece could fit a certain horn or a certain embouchure or a certain style.
Most advanced classical players and many traditional jazz players played quite closed tip mouthpieces. There's nothing wrong with closed mouthpieces. The 4C may be not anyone's bag BUT it's quality and purpose is second to none. The CMs that come with pro horn are totally different and feel like selmer replicas. I personally like the C line on any saxophone I tried. It's not that flexible or it might not have a complex sound but it ticks every box for a mouthpiece for everybody and anybody.
I don't know any other mouthpiece that plays with all stubborn horns newer or vintage ... It's easy to blow ... And let's the player think less ... Play more ... And progress....

I'm not any special player but I always have a C mouthpiece in my instrument bag. It maybe a 5 or 4 or 6 I don't really care.... It's my swiss army knife mouthpiece ..... And I'm really glad that I progressed as a beginner using them and not a fancy mouthpiece that would hold me back ... It's an emotional bond. It's the only piece of sax related equipment that absolutely never let me down.... Ligatures ... Reeds... Saxophones.... Are something totally different....

You’re absolutely right about the 4C for classical and trad jazz. Could last you a lifetime. But not everybody plays just those styles. You’ll never be able to get that huge, lush sound like Dexter, etc., especially in the low register on such a closed tip.

So depending on your sound, the 4C and similar may not cut it. I really wish it would because that would have saved me thousands in mouthpieces over the years. But you can’t overcome physics with technique alone. Bigger tip = bigger max amplitude = bigger sound and bigger low overtones.

I played a closed tip on tenor as a kid in the 70s, as did all beginners. But after about a year I got into jazz and immediately when to a huge tip like all my idols and never looked back. I do play medium tip on alto and small tips on bass sax and C melody because it’s appropriate for the trad jazz sound I need on those horns.

Bottom line, if you’re happy with a 4C, stick with it indefinitely. But if you need a bigger sound and more flexibility there’s no shame in switching to a bigger tip rather than struggle with a small tip.

 

[Colin the Bear]

You can only develop your chops so far. We're limited by genetics. There's something very profound about this observation.

"I am what I am and that's all I am"

Who was it?

Popeye the sailor.

If it's not loud enough you can mic up and the plethora of effects available live or added to a recording is astounding.

I don't wory about the size of my tip. 😉

 

[lydian]

You can only develop your chops so far. We're limited by genetics. There's something very profound about this observation.

"I am what I am and that's all I am"

Who was it?

Popeye the sailor.

If it's not loud enough you can mic up and the plethora of effects available live or added to a recording is astounding.

I don't wory about the size of my tip. 😉

Big doesn't necessarily mean loud. I can play plenty loud on a closed tip. Big means rich and full and powerful. If you mic up, you're only amplifying what's there to begin with, not adding what might be missing. And that's a big no thanks from me on the effects in lieu of a real sound.

If the 4C works for you, then keep doing what you're doing. I can sound fine on a 4C too. However, I can sound amazing on something bigger, which is why I choose bigger.

 

[mizmar]

I can sound fine on a 4C too. However, I can sound amazing on something bigger,

Similarly, I sound bit rubbish on a 6C and would still sound rubbish on a €£$200++ mp. So I stick with the Yamaha till I improve.

 

[lydian]

Similarly, I sound bit rubbish on a 6C and would still sound rubbish on a €£$200++ mp. So I stick with the Yamaha till I improve.

Good plan. Since I've been playing over 40 years, if I don't sound good by now, no fancy mouthpiece will help me either.

Just to be clear, I'm not advising beginners to go out and get a big, expensive mouthpiece. Quite the contrary. Stick with something easy to play, like the 4C, until you feel you've outgrown it. If that never happens, then you're set for life and all is well.

 

[saxyjt]

@Domin Abbus you mentioned that you're moving from alto to tenor if I read you properly. So that may be more challenging than 4c or 5c...

Now the reason they include a 4c in my opinion is that they target the classical musicians first and they use in the vast majority some narrow tips with hard reeds.

I used to play harder reeds on tenor than on alto with similar mouthpieces like 4c or T20/T25 on tenor. I struggled to play 3.0 on alto but I was fine with 3.5 on tenor.

As you will learn quickly, tenor is somewhat different and you need to adapt to it. I and spend more than 6 months, perhaps a couple of years, when I started on tenor and it's not been straight forward.

You didn't say what you want to play. Jazz, pop, rock, classical?

 

[MikeMorrell]

Thanks all.
After reading your comments, I'll go out and get myself the 5C (possibly the 6C), and consider the stock mouthpiece as a pair of white gloves <gd&r>
I'll let you know how I get on. I am not afraid to fail, only afraid to not try.

---
gentleman (noun): someone who knows how to play the saxophone, but refrains from doing so.
me: does not know how to play the saxophone, but still insists.

Hi, I notice (like me) that you're in the Netherlands. Depending on where you live there's usually a music/sax shop not too far away where you can test and compare different mouthpieces (with the same reed) to find one that you find easiest to play:

• all over the sax (from low to high notes)
• across the whole dynamic range (very softly to 'loud')

If possible, it's useful to have a sax tutor or more experience player go along and listen. This is just one example but thesaxcompany.nl has a good online overview of different mouthpieces and prices. Together with the link to mouthpiece tip openings posted by @mizmar, you might be able to pick out a couple that you're interested in trying out. If not now, then sometime in the future.

Since you're In NL, you might be interested at some stage of your development in HenkRensink. The link is to the English language version of his website but he also has a Dutch language version. He offers ''mouthpiece measurements' and advice. He also has a wide range of mouthpieces to try out based on his 'measurements'. Note that he doesn't sell any mouthpieces! So if you find one you really like, you need to order it yourself from a shop. I ended up ordering a little-known German (ESM) mouthpiece which I still play to this day.

 

[Direct Current]

Some of us like and are suited to a close tip opening. Grown up implies that we all should be aiming at big.
Mouthpieces are like shoes. A good fit is wanted not a big size. The time for bigger shoes is if your feet grow or if you want to stick on a red nose and join the circus.
I'm playing a Selmer D on alto and a C* on baritone, for 40 years. I am full grown.
If the reed closes off it's too soft. The 5 I use on Baritone doesn't close off.
On the other hand I'm using a rico M11 on clarinet.
What works, works. Numbers are for reference and comparison not a measure of progress.

Did you get to those respective reeds via other player advice, retail consultant, or informed trial and error? Loved the shoes analogy, so thought it'd be interesting to learn your process.

Is each of those saxophones for a different idiom? I suppose that'd drive the direction of a search.

Considering variety of mouth pieces and diversity of reeds, there must be over 100 combinations for any given player.

 

[Direct Current]

If this is true, why does Yamaha provide a 4C (or 4CM) with all their saxophones? This includes the professional 62 and 875

Yamaha is not going to include anything but their own brand MP and at its production level, the 4C is least expensive include. Seems like most / all / IDK for sure include a not-equal-the-horn MP. The cheap Amazon imports include absurdly stocked case with no label MP. Instant better instrument with even slightest MP and reed upgrades. Maybe the industry generally assumes that anyone getting hooked will be upgrading to MP and reed combination specific to idiom and player.

 

[Vetinari]

🙁Why do Yamaha only do a 5c for baritone? At around the same price Rico have a bit more choice, but I've never been able to get a reasonable sound from any. The price of anything else is out of my budget.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Maybe the industry generally assumes that anyone getting hooked will be upgrading to MP and reed combination specific to idiom and player.

Which is a reasonable assumption.

Why do Yamaha only do a 5c for baritone?

They do 5c (and 6C) for tenor and alto. Also 3C I think.

 

[Vetinari]

They do 5c (and 6C) for tenor and alto. Also 3C I think

Only have a bari now. 5c only, for bari.