Saxophones Windcraft WAS-110 Alto

[Jimmymack]

Dawkes are a long established and well regarded company, they’ve been around since 1966, with a sizeable repair department, a department selling woodwind parts and tools and they are also woodwind retailers. While they are subject to the same problems as anybody else buying from China or wherever you would expect them to pay more attention. They are still buying blanks with their name engraved on them, but they are likely to be better than those sold by Joe’s transmissions and sourced with more care. I wouldn’t go looking for one but if it was what I could afford and I was new to playing saxophones then maybe I would. But probably not a second hand one.

 

[skeller047]

Me again !!

I have been offered the above complete with mouthpiece, care kit, strap, and case, for £215 (+ p&p) - wondering if this is a good deal?

@Steve Howard reviewed one of them some time ago and gave it a reasonably good review at the time - are they still worth picking up or would a Jupiter or Antigua Winds be a better option (for a beginner)?

Any thoughts / comments appreciated......

Thanks

It's not worth it.
Not because the horn's no good but because you're not really making a significant step-up from the Gear4Music.
Your bottom line at this point is going to be a Yamaha, or a decent Trevor James - so something around the £500-700 mark.

The G4M is a pretty decent starter horn and should play with ease. It'll be a copy of a Selmer/Yamaha/Yanagisawa - and unless there's something drastically wrong with it, it should serve you well enough for a good few years.

If you want a definitive answer on it, have a drive out to Hampshire and I'll check it over (properly) for you. Won't cost you anything but your time...and a nice pastry.

@LisaP2026 - Do take Mr. Howard up on his most generous offer. It’s worth the drive, from wherever you are. You will get an answer to the questions you have, and guidance as to the best road forward.

From your descriptions of the G4M sax, either you are really doing something wrong, or there is an issue with the horn. We can’t tell in a text forum.

I agree that changing from one low-end store brand to another is not likely to be useful. If you can’t make the trip to Stephen Howard’s place, then find a local sax player to play your instrument and see what she (or he) says. A good experienced player.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Or buy a £5 leak light.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Dawkes are a long established and well regarded company, they’ve been around since 1966, with a sizeable repair department, a department selling woodwind parts and tools and they are also woodwind retailers. While they are subject to the same problems as anybody else buying from China or wherever you would expect them to pay more attention. They are still buying blanks with their name engraved on them, but they are likely to be better than those sold by Joe’s transmissions and sourced with more care. I wouldn’t go looking for one but if it was what I could afford and I was new to playing saxophones then maybe I would. But probably not a second hand one.

That's why the Windcraft alto did well in its review - because they're not just know-nothing retailers looking to make a quick profit...they have a full-time repair dept. Alway have had. Which means they have an advantage over most retailers in that they have people who are able to pick the best that's on offer...because they know what to look for.
And they're still going strong today -which says a very great deal.

 

[JayeNM]

It’s £585 which is a reasonable price here. it’s serviced and guaranteed with a 6 months warranty.

Not 'unreasonable' by today's standards ....but honestly, a yas23 is NOT $800usd worth of alto....it just isn't. But again, that is their price points I understand...(for that quid it should be very, very pretty finish-wise at least)

 

[JayeNM]

So bit of a conundrum currently.

If the Windcraft is 'not worth it' at its price BUT IT PLAYS UP AND DOWN...

And the G4M is a 'parallel' horn in quality and usability....BUT IT ISN'T PLAYING CLEANLY EVEN AFTER A SERVICING...

and real reputed 'step-up' options put you into 450-600quid of investment....

...what to do ?

Spend more $ on servicing the G4M ?

Sell the G4M as 'quasi-playable' and buy the Windcraft (if you really cannot afford over say 300) or something else (if you can) ???

Again, I would investigate whether the G 4M is leaking first...in which case, if it isn't...it's you.

If it IS, then either a) your tech didn't do a proper fix three months ago or b) he/she DID, and the horn doesn't hold regulation (thus isn't really very useful).

 

[Colin the Bear]

I think you'll have problems getting a tech to service a G4m, and I wouldn't buy a second hand one, for lots of reasons.

23's seem to be entering the collectable area. Old enough to have survivor status and a growing cult following.

It might be worth considering taking up clarinet till finances improve. Cheaper to buy, easier to refurbish, easier portability and similar repertoire.

Just a thought.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I think you'll have problems getting a tech to service a G4m, and I wouldn't buy a second hand one, for lots of reasons.

I'm happy to service them.
I cut my teeth on sh*tty Weltklangs - and the big difference with Ultra-Cheap horns is that once you get them up and running you've at least got a reasonable horn.

 

[JayeNM]

I think you'll have problems getting a tech to service a G4m, and I wouldn't buy a second hand one, for lots of reasons.

23's seem to be entering the collectable area. Old enough to have survivor status and a growing cult following.

It might be worth considering taking up clarinet till finances improve. Cheaper to buy, easier to refurbish, easier portability and similar repertoire.

Just a thought.

You have a G4M in some voice, yes ? have you had that experience ?

 

[JayeNM]

FWIW ...you are lucky if you get an 'utra cheap horn' up and running and it STAYS that way.

Most do NOT, because they do not hold their regulation even after being serviced.

If a G4M actually DOES (and OP's experience suggests it may NOT, or hers at least) then that would be a bit of good fortune.....

 

[Stephen Howard]

FWIW ...you are lucky if you get an 'utra cheap horn' up and running and it STAYS that way.

Most do NOT, because they do not hold their regulation even after being serviced.

Then they've probably been serviced by a 'pad shellacker'.
One for Grumps there.

 

[JayeNM]

Double post

 

[LisaP2026]

Thanks for all of your thoughts and comments so far - I think I will persevere with the G4M for now (@Stephen Howard - will PM you to arrange a visit)

 

[JayeNM]

Then they've probably been serviced by a 'pad shellacker'.
One for Grumps there.

Cannot speak to G4M or Windcraft or Elkhart or the like....

Those seem quite common on your side of the pond but nobody has those here, really.

Slade, Hutchen, Eastar, Borg are the more common ones here, then going back a bit...the Palatinos and Cecilios.

No tech can weild magic to make those stay in regulation over moderate stretches of playing. Nothing to do with the tech, all to do with 'you get what you paid for'...

 

[JayeNM]

Thanks for all of your thoughts and comments so far - I think I will persevere with the G4M for now (@Stephen Howard - will PM you to arrange a visit)

seems the most logical course for the moment...

my guess is your other tech either didn't resolve all of its issues, or did but it went out of reg again....or (less likely imho)... the horn is fine and it is you...

 

[LisaP2026]

seems the most logical course for the moment...

my guess is your other tech either didn't resolve all of its issues, or did but it went out of reg again....or (less likely imho)... the horn is fine and it is you...

No - it's quite possibly me!!!

 

[JayeNM]

No - it's quite possibly me!!!

Maybe but for notes to speak cleanly in some places but not in others, usually points to leaks, not the player...

 

[Stephen Howard]

Cannot speak to G4M or Windcraft or Elkhart or the like....

Those seem quite common on your side of the pond but nobody has those here, really.

Slade, Hutchen, Eastar, Borg are the more common ones here, then going back a bit...the Palatinos and Cecilios.

No tech can weild magic to make those stay in regulation over moderate stretches of playing. Nothing to do with the tech, all to do with 'you get what you paid for'...

Chances are they all come from the same bunch of factories.

I must have magic hands then - because I have no problems getting such horns to stay in reg. Indeed - I used to keep a Chinese tenor in the boot of my car as an emergency horn (or in case I stumbled upon a gig in a pub). Set it up, put it in the car, used it - it never had any problems. Neither did my Chinese bari.
I rather suspect that folks take one look at such horns and label them junk (QED) and don't bother to sit down and think about how they can improve them and what changes to their tooling/technique would be advantageous.
But that's not my problem.

 

[Colin the Bear]

You have a G4M in some voice, yes ? have you had that experience ?

I have alto tenor and curly sop from G4m. I busked the alto for several years, gigged the tenor occasionally and fought with the sop.

These were all the earlier incarnations based on a Yani. Mine are all retired now.

The sop was a reduced/return. It needed serious dremel modification to stop the keys clashing.

The alto and tenor needed regular, constant tweaking between playing.

I do my own tweaking, so no techs were involved, but I've read many posts about work being refused, out of hand, usually because the cost would be more than the worth of the instrument.

The current G4m horns are not the same as the ones I own. They're a copy of a different horn.

The beauty of the G4m sales model is the 30 day, no quibble, return policy. Keep a keeper. Return a lemon.

A second hand unit has no guarantee. A beginner, who unknowingly gets a lemon, gives up and sells it on, because playing it proves impossible, passes on the problem to the next cash strapped beginner who struggles thinking it's them.

I suppose it applies to any second hand horn.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I have alto tenor and curly sop from G4m. I busked the alto for several years, gigged the tenor occasionally and fought with the sop.

These were all the earlier incarnations based on a Yani. Mine are all retired now.

The sop was a reduced/return. It needed serious dremel modification to stop the keys clashing.

The alto and tenor needed regular, constant tweaking between playing.

I do my own tweaking, so no techs were involved, but I've read many posts about work being refused, out of hand, usually because the cost would be more than the worth of the instrument.

The current G4m horns are not the same as the ones I own. They're a copy of a different horn.

They switched over to a Selmer copy some years ago - which was a shame because the Yani copies were pretty nice blowers.
No real idea as to why they did so but it was probably down to a combination of a drop-off in quality and another factory giving them a better price per unit.
I still see quite a few of those old G4Ms in the workshop - especially the baris (which were Yamaha copies).