Saxophones Why is...? Modern left hand table key design

[greenstripe]

Probably answering my own question somewhat: Why is it that my left hand table keys are designed so that you could use any of them to play a G# although it seems that it would be a bit cumbersome to do so when the G# key is going to give a lighter, sharper (pun intended) action if pressed on its own?

Am I missing something: is there another purpose to all of the keys linking to the G# key?

 

[Dibbs]

So that you don't have to slide if a bell note is followed by a G#. The articulated G# mechanism makes it possible to to link them all. And yes, as you imply, they're a bit on the flat side when used like that.

 

[Woodpad]

I am also puzzled why they made this choice instead of a roller on the G# key. Is rolling horizontally so different from rolling vertically? With the tilting mechanism on the bell B flat it is understandable, but that invention came years after the articulated G#.

 

[turf3]

Well, first of all let's get the terminology straight. Articulated G# is the design where the G# pad and the G# touch are two different keys, so when you play any note below G# the G# pad is held closed. Contrast to the standard Boehm clarinet where there's one key and if you press the key touch the pad opens, regardless of which other keys may be held closed. Prettty much every saxophone since the 1890s has had the articulated G#.

What OP is talking about is the "linked" G# which is the design where G# may be played with any of the four LH little finger keys. This is purely about the fingering of arpeggiated passages and large intervals - for example C# to G#. On the smallest saxophones it's possible to slide from one key to the other, but this isn't really practical on the larger instruments. Certain leaps become extremely difficult, for example Bb to Ab or C# to G# (forgive enharmonic spellings). Thus the linked G#.

The presence or absence of the linked G# is NOT dependent on whether the bell keys are "modern" layout (rods down the middle of the horn, keys pivot counterclockwise when looked down on from above) or "old" layout (rods down the back side of the horn, keys pivot clockwise). However, the lower forces required with the "modern" layout (at least in some cases) make it easier to depress the low C#, B, Bb keys when the force from the linkage is added. Of course, in exchange for lower force on the "modern" layout you get much longer key travel and squishy keys. I'm not aware of any "modern layout" horn that doesn't link the G# but there are very many of the "old layout" horns that DO.

It's all about adding alternate fingerings that make certain passages easier to play smoothly.

 

[Dibbs]

Well, first of all let's get the terminology straight. Articulated G# is the design where the G# pad and the G# touch are two different keys, so when you play any note below G# the G# pad is held closed. Contrast to the standard Boehm clarinet where there's one key and if you press the key touch the pad opens, regardless of which other keys may be held closed. Prettty much every saxophone since the 1890s has had the articulated G#.

I don't think you quite got what I was saying. Let me explain further. As I said it is the articulated mechanism that makes the linking possible. If you linked them on a standard boehm clarinet , it wouldn't work. Think about it it a little. If you did that the C#/G# hole would then open when you played any of the LH keys. It would be impossible to play LH low F#, F or E or the clarion equivalents C#, C and B. The articulated mechanism makes sure that the G# hole is closed for the bell notes on the saxophone even if the G# key is pressed. To put it another way, the linking mechanism is dependent on the articulated mecahnism.

 

[turf3]

I don't think you quite got what I was saying. Let me explain further. As I said it is the articulated mechanism that makes the linking possible. If you linked them on a standard boehm clarinet , it wouldn't work. Think about it it a little. If you did that the C#/G# hole would then open when you played any of the LH keys. It would be impossible to play LH low F#, F or E or the clarion equivalents C#, C and B. The articulated mechanism makes sure that the G# hole is closed for the bell notes on the saxophone even if the G# key is pressed. To put it another way, the linking mechanism is dependent on the articulated mecahnism.

Yes, you're right, the G# linkage wouldn't work if there wasn't the articulated G#; but the articulated G# came into pretty much universal use around 1900. And yet there were saxes being built without the G# link as late as 1970+ (Conn 16M and King Zephyr baritone, for at least two examples - and while both of these are old designs, adding a little flat plate to the G# key with some cork is an almost trivial job, so they could have come from the factory with the linkage).

My point was that there's nothing about the modern Selmer-style left hand key design that makes that a changeover point - while I'm unaware of any horns that have the modern table design and DON'T have the linkage, it's not mandatory, and there are plenty of horns with the old table design that DO have the linkage.

 

[Colin the Bear]

For those fudgers among us, hit anything in that area and you get the G# you were looking for.

Also articulating a run with a bell note in it, passing through G#, it saves the old tiny appendage doing dance moves. Park it and run.

Try clarinet. Left and right hand pinky dance. No rollers.

(Typed this earlier and forgot to press post so it seems out of sequence)

 

[Woodpad]

My point was that there's nothing about the modern Selmer-style left hand key design that makes that a changeover point

Try to roll from low B flat to G# in one go.

 

[turf3]

Try to roll from low B flat to G# in one go.

Are you trying to say that the 1-2-1 layout of the modern Selmer style (G#, then B and C#, then Bb) makes it impossible to slide directly from Bb to G#? Of course, you're correct, but that 1-2-1 layout long predates the G# linkage. Old Kings, Bueschers, the oldest Conns and all Conn sopranos, and any number of others, have that 1-2-1 layout without the linkage.

Either with the 1-2-1 or the 1-3 (G#, then C#, B, Bb all in a line), there are intervals involving G# that are darn difficult, which is why the little plate was being installed on horns long before the Selmer tilting Bb was on the scene. My point is that the two things are not inextricably linked. When Selmer introduced the Balanced Action layout (at first without tilting Bb, then adding the tilting key with the Mark 6), their objective was to have the most advanced keywork there was, so of course they linked the G#.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Well, first of all let's get the terminology straight.

What OP is talking about is the "linked" G# which is the design where G# may be played with any of the four LH little finger keys.

They are indeed different things. I used to call it the articulated G# for years until I leaned that is related but different thing. While on the subject of terminology I have heard it referred to as the tab or tabbed G#, but I'm sure you are correct with the word linked also.

See:

Low note problems? Check your G# | Taming The Saxophone

The articulated and/or tabbed G# link is a very handy feature on all saxophones, but is a common source of leaks. We show you how to keep it working nicely

tamingthesaxophone.com

 

[BalancedReaction]

I wonder, now, when we have the G# linkage, why don't we just get rid of the G# key itself and use the remaining three keys to play G# instead?
I mean, keep the linkage and the foot but remove the touchpiece. Sure, it'd require more pressure and may change the tuning a bit, but the C#/B/Bb cluster would move towards the player and be easier to reach. There are some players who never use the G# key directly anyway (Chris Potter, Bob Reynolds).

 

[turf3]

The Holton Collegiate horns (at least some of them) had the C# and G# integrated. This does make it impossible to play a couple intervals I can't remember at the moment.

I think the biggest issue would be having to flap those big bell keys back and forth any time you want to play G#.

 

[JayeNM]

I am also puzzled why they made this choice instead of a roller on the G# key. Is rolling horizontally so different from rolling vertically? With the tilting mechanism on the bell B flat it is understandable, but that invention came years after the articulated G#.

Buescher Truetones, the last iteration before they became Aristcrats, had roller G# touches. They are excellent.

I wonder, now, when we have the G# linkage, why don't we just get rid of the G# key itself and use the remaining three keys to play G# instead?
I mean, keep the linkage and the foot but remove the touchpiece. Sure, it'd require more pressure and may change the tuning a bit, but the C#/B/Bb cluster would move towards the player and be easier to reach. There are some players who never use the G# key directly anyway (Chris Potter, Bob Reynolds).

For a time, back in late 20's-early 30's, Holton had three-touch pinky tables on their sopranos.

The G# and C# were one touch, an "upside down" L-shaped touch, with single roller on the vertical leg towards the B touch; so the horn would either sound C# if your lower stack was pressed closed, or G# if your lower stack was open.
Cool mechanism, actually....a nice, straightforward solution given the era.

edit: @turf3 beat me to it...

 

[turf3]

For a time, back in late 20's-early 30's, Holton had three-touch pinky tables on their sopranos.

The G# and C# were one touch, an "upside down" L-shaped touch, with single roller on the vertical leg towards the B touch; so the horn would either sound C# if your lower stack was pressed closed, or G# if your lower stack was open.
Cool mechanism, actually....a nice, straightforward solution given the era.

edit: @turf3 beat me to it...

Jaye, I believe those weren't actually made by Holton, but by Couturier. If you look for Couturier sopranos you can see the same layout. I actually own one of these, and I used to own a Holton-made Holton soprano, which was definitely not the same thing.

What I remember (I haven't spent any time with my old Holton Collegiate (Couturier) soprano in some years) was that there was one arpeggiated pattern or interval that simply couldn't be played with the one piece G#-C#, but I can't remember what it was. Furthermore, the way it was laid out didn't take advantage of the possible advantage of moving all the keys closer, as there was still a G# key occupying the space of a G# key; just that it was integrated with the C# key.

 

[BalancedReaction]

For a time, back in late 20's-early 30's, Holton had three-touch pinky tables on their sopranos.

The G# and C# were one touch, an "upside down" L-shaped touch, with single roller on the vertical leg towards the B touch; so the horn would either sound C# if your lower stack was pressed closed, or G# if your lower stack was open.
Cool mechanism, actually....a nice, straightforward solution given the era.

Interesting mechanism, will check it out. Thanks.

 

[Woodpad]

The Couesnon monopole conservatoir ii has a little mechanism to flip from a coupled G# to an uncoupled. You can't change it during playing. There are no patents on this gismo as far as I know.

 

[Pete Thomas]

There are no patents on this gismo as far as I know.

That doesn't surprise me - seems like a solution looking for a problem.

 

[Vetinari]

On my bari G# touch does not open the pad, it only allows a spring to open it. If I hold it down then pressing F or lower closes that pad.

 

[JayeNM]

Jaye, I believe those weren't actually made by Holton, but by Couturier. If you look for Couturier sopranos you can see the same layout. I actually own one of these, and I used to own a Holton-made Holton soprano, which was definitely not the same thing.

What I remember (I haven't spent any time with my old Holton Collegiate (Couturier) soprano in some years) was that there was one arpeggiated pattern or interval that simply couldn't be played with the one piece G#-C#, but I can't remember what it was. Furthermore, the way it was laid out didn't take advantage of the possible advantage of moving all the keys closer, as there was still a G# key occupying the space of a G# key; just that it was integrated with the C# key.

It may have just read "Collegiate" without the Holton. Have these been confirmed not to be made by Holton, though ? This was a long time ago, like 15 years, that I worked on that horn. I don't think I have pics any longer. But that'd be interesting...

 

[skeller047]

The Couesnon monopole conservatoir ii has a little mechanism to flip from a coupled G# to an uncoupled. You can't change it during playing. There are no patents on this gismo as far as I know.

Beaugnier offered this as well, on some of the model 35 horns (Vito and Noblet). I guess it’s a quick and easy way to deal with the mis-regulation of the lower stack key -> G# key, say if a cork drops off? Don’t see much else use for it.

I knew several guys in the 60’s and ‘70’s who deliberately bent (or broke off) the G# tabs on their horns, because they claimed the stability outweighed the convenience of being able to do C# or E major arpeggios without a lot of pinky dancing. To say nothing of leaps from C#, B or Bb to Ab/G#…