Saxophone beginners Why does my sax sound like a flute?

[BigMartin]

I can't find it, but I think it was by Jerry Bergonzi. He was demonstrating how he could play/sound like others without changing equipment.

Don Menza:

 

[BigMartin]

It's good that you're asking questions and your progress is excellent, but maybe you're expectations are too high for the short period you have been of playing !

I completely agree. Be prepared to spend years rather than weeks developing your sound.

 

[Matabayahsi]

It's good that you're asking questions and your progress is excellent, but maybe you're expectations are too high for the short period you have been of playing !

I am a little bit impatient I know but of course I am not expecting this to make me a prof in a day but I just like to know where I am going or trying to go to.

On another update about this issue I ve practised my overtones a lot today thanks to @jbtsax `s suggestion and I can see a big difference(big for me small for anybody else I reckon) in my tone
But more importantly than that the sound I liked on my G note I figured was just a loose embouchure so I moved changed my embouchure to lip out today ruined my tuning completely but tonewise I can see it is leading to where I want it to but a more loud bright sound.

Once thing that concerns me though is when I changed my embouchure I was so out of tune I had to change the place of my mouthpiece which means I cant go back to the old one on the spot is this what happens to everybody?
I guess my question becomes "is embochure revolutionary or evolutionary?"

 

[kevgermany]

Don Menza:

That's the one, ta

 

[jbtsax]

Rather than changing the lip placement or position, I believe it would be more advantageous to keep the same standard embouchure with the top teeth directly over when the mouthpiece and reed come together, and just enough lip pushed back to cover the tops of the bottom teeth.

Then work on playing long tones on your mouthpiece alone. Classical players typically set the embouchure tightness to produce an A=880. Jazz and "pop" players often play on a lower mouthpiece pitch which reduces the "dampening" of the reed and generates stronger overtones to give more "edge" to the sound. A good place to start would be to produce a Concert G on the mouthpiece and then play with that embouchure tension into the sax. Of course playing lower on the mouthpiece pitch will require setting the mouthpiece a bit farther on the neck so the pitch isn't flat.

Once you are comfortable controlling the pitch and the sound with a mouthpiece pitch of G, you might then try playing with a mouthpiece pitch of F# or F. Moving the bottom lip in and out is like chasing your tail in my opinion---especially on alto. You will never develop the control you are after by constantly changing. If you are trying to emulate the sound Candy Dulfer plays with, here is a close-up of the embouchure she uses. Note that her bottom lip is not out in front of the lower teeth.

 

[Matabayahsi]

Rather than changing the lip placement or position, I believe it would be more advantageous to keep the same standard embouchure with the top teeth directly over when the mouthpiece and reed come together, and just enough lip pushed back to cover the tops of the bottom teeth.

Then work on playing long tones on your mouthpiece alone. Classical players typically set the embouchure tightness to produce an A=880. Jazz and "pop" players often play on a lower mouthpiece pitch which reduces the "dampening" of the reed and generates stronger overtones to give more "edge" to the sound. A good place to start would be to produce a Concert G on the mouthpiece and then play with that embouchure tension into the sax. Of course playing lower on the mouthpiece pitch will require setting the mouthpiece a bit farther on the neck so the pitch isn't flat.

Once you are comfortable controlling the pitch and the sound with a mouthpiece pitch of G, you might then try playing with a mouthpiece pitch of F# or F. Moving the bottom lip in and out is like chasing your tail in my opinion---especially on alto. You will never develop the control you are after by constantly changing. If you are trying to emulate the sound Candy Dulfer plays with, here is a close-up of the embouchure she uses. Note that her bottom lip is not out in front of the lower teeth.

well spotted! I am not exactly trying to copy her entirely but I would want to have the edge and the brightness she has on her tone (these terms I ve learnt just today by reading every possible thing 😀)
and I actually would like to keep my lip where it is but I found taking it out was the only option to get that sound.
"Of course playing lower on the mouthpiece pitch will require setting the mouthpiece a bit farther on the neck so the pitch isn't flat. "
Thank you for pointing this out it really bothered me that I would have to change the position of the mpc does that mean if I would like to use a softer tone on a different song I would have to change it back or do you think I can make a softer tone with a loose embouchure?
You ve been a great helper on this issue thank you very very much!
Tomorrow I ll try the mouthpiece with constant G, F# and F since the vibrato practises I find it much easier to have control on a loose embochoure now(compared with when I was first trying mpc exercises of course)

"reduces the "dampening" of the reed and generates stronger overtones" do you think dampening the reed less from the beginning is a good idea then?

 

[Colin the Bear]

I move the mouthpiece on the neck to get closer to the sort of sound I'm after for some numbers.

Be prepared to spend years rather than weeks developing your sound.

Even this may be optimistic. I've not found mine yet. It may take a lifetime. When I get where I want to be I find just a little bit more would be better.

There isn't a day when I don't think, I could sound better. It's what keeps us playing and drives us nuts.

Some days I feel I just can't play, no matter what I do. Those are listening days. I've had Jerry Mulligan meets Johnny Hodges today. Aaaahhhh! That's better.

 

[Duck]

Just to be really pedantic...

It's not the brass that resonates, it's the air.

Did I not mention that I like to give the bell of my Sax a regular wallop with a toffee hammer whilst playing? Yeah, it's this nouveaux one-man-band thing I'm working on, I also have a couple of ukuleles between my knees rubbing together and a kazoo...well anyway you don't need all the details. I get a real hearty tone out of that kazoo though - talk about growl.

 

[altissimo]

evolutionary

I don't know about anyone else, but my embouchure is always in a state of evolution - it took me over a year to get anywhere with the clarinet and sax and I think the way I approach the instrument now is different to how it was last year, never mind 10 years ago...
My tone is basically the same it's always been, in the same way that my speaking voice is the same - the various chest, throat, mouth and facial resonances that make our speaking voices unique are the same things that have an effect on our saxophone tones. With practice we can improve that voice and make it stronger and richer, but it's still your voice.
Mouthpieces can make your tone brighter or darker, or thinner or fatter, but it's still going to sound like you.
A Rico Metalite is the cheapest way of getting that bright tone. Ms Dulfer seems to be using a Lebayle Studio.

Just keep playing and you'll get somewhere - enjoy the ride

 

[Matabayahsi]

I move the mouthpiece on the neck to get closer to the sort of sound I'm after for some numbers.



Even this may be optimistic. I've not found mine yet. It may take a lifetime. When I get where I want to be I find just a little bit more would be better.

There isn't a day when I don't think, I could sound better. It's what keeps us playing and drives us nuts.

Some days I feel I just can't play, no matter what I do. Those are listening days. I've had Jerry Mulligan meets Johnny Hodges today. Aaaahhhh! That's better.

Yeah but you dont sound like a flute you might not be satisfied with your tone but you do sound great ! I am not asking to have the best tone I just want to sound at the minimum like a roaring saxophone

I don't know about anyone else, but my embouchure is always in a state of evolution - it took me over a year to get anywhere with the clarinet and sax and I think the way I approach the instrument now is different to how it was last year, never mind 10 years ago...
My tone is basically the same it's always been, in the same way that my speaking voice is the same - the various chest, throat, mouth and facial resonances that make our speaking voices unique are the same things that have an effect on our saxophone tones. With practice we can improve that voice and make it stronger and richer, but it's still your voice.
Mouthpieces can make your tone brighter or darker, or thinner or fatter, but it's still going to sound like you.
A Rico Metalite is the cheapest way of getting that bright tone. Ms Dulfer seems to be using a Lebayle Studio.

Just keep playing and you'll get somewhere - enjoy the ride

I hope my tone wont be like my singing voice because it is terrible!

On the other hand I dont sound like a flute anymore thanks to all of you and your advices!
I sound like a saxophone.. that is waaaay out of tune 😀 but I should be getting back to controlling it soon enough.
I dropped the lip all out and got back to my lip almost out embouchure and it feels quite natural and I have no pressure from my bottom teeth anymore my line on my lip is completely dissapearing.yay! Also I dont get tired that easily with this embouchure for some reason
I have been practising staying on G and F with the mpc and also long notes on the sax I am very very satisfied with my lower register now it sounds amazing! never liked my lower register till today but now I dont like my high register 😀
one thing I discovered with my new embouchure though is that the tuning changes as I go higher and if I decide to do a vibrato or bending I go back to my old embouchure I guess it is only natural that this happens.

Another question arises now though :
Should I change my embouchure slightly when I move to higher notes so that I am in tune ? because that is what it takes now to be in tune.

So thanks all of you to take my tone further I expect it will be even brighter once I try a softer reed and a high baffle mpc but that is for later. I ll soon be posting a recording of my new tone as soon as I practise my long notes more.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I just want to sound at the minimum like a roaring saxophone

Yeah! Me too. Give a decade or two.

I go back to my old embouchure

Man I've got gunk in the mouthpiece older lol.

Take your time. Enjoy the journey. Blow, enjoy, relax a little.

 

[Matabayahsi]

You still can say that you want a roaring tone with that video on your signature 😀?

I have a week until I go back to busier places with a lot of people with noise complaints and 2 more months until I go back to my country to play gigs I have to get better until then!

 

[Colin the Bear]

Oh dear that clip. Blow as hard as you can and growl the whole thing cause the sax won't play right. Nothing below D1 when I got up there and I need a C. You'll notice me freeing the G# in the guitar solo. Add that to the nerves/adrenalin and too much cider waiting to go on and there you have it. Timing all over the place but good fun. Free if you play and well worth the money lol

 

[thomsax]

Some advices from a self-taught saxplayer: When I heard Clarence Clemons for the first time in 1973 I decided to try to get a simular sound. I didn't know better! I got some information what the Big Man did to get that sound. He was a big guy and he was also able to put in a lot of energy in his tone. And he didn't practise scales up and down. He just work with a few tones and tried to get as much sound as possible out the note! He was also into circular breathing. Nothing for me and I don't recommend young/beginners to practise this. I started to do long tone exercises in differnt patterns and shapes: differnt keys, blues-, pentatonic patterns ..... growl, note bending, various volume ..... . I have a metronome running when I do these ecercises, c 60 rpm. The breathing is important. Involve the whole body not just your throat and mouth. when I was young, playing football and ice hockey, wrestling ... I did some heavy weight training during the fore season. I have the simular focus and breathing when I do long tones! Try to get a "full body" with lots of timber and to bring out "every mudulations" of the tone. Record yourself or do the exercises with a person that can give you some feed back. Teachers are not so fond of these exercises😉

Just plain long tones: Hold the tone as long as you can. Start on middle C and go chromatic down to the lowest tone. And go from middle C to the highest tone on your sax.

Add "growl": Same ads above but add a "growl" (humming, deeper growl, heavy vibrato,.... ). It's hard to do on the low tones but it's good training. The "growl" is much slower down there.

Various volume. Play pianissimo and go to "full volume" and back to pianissimo. Start at full volume - pianissimo full - volume.

Note bending: Bend down the tone in middle and take the tone back.

And there will just be one Clarence Clemons! But it's fun to try! I think lots of players who are into contemporary sax music should add some more "Texas" to thier sound. A guy who is "Texas" soundwise is Sax Gordon and listen to when he is playing "Big and Hot":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtEOIkkfxto

Keep On Honkin'!

 

[Matabayahsi]

Yeah to get used to this looser embouchure I went through the long notes quite a lot today and yesterday I see what it does now! tuning is still a challenge though at least my higher notes but I can see it is coming along and I feel very satisfied with the tone.
Actually the person I was working with said that today everything I played sounded my more confident which translated to me that my tone is getting more edgy and punchy 🙂
Makes me very happy

I am really enjoying the video by the way I love his tone blasting like a spear no drums or guitar is beating that in the mix!
One day I ll get there as well I suppose

Oh dear that clip. Blow as hard as you can and growl the whole thing cause the sax won't play right. Nothing below D1 when I got up there and I need a C. You'll notice me freeing the G# in the guitar solo. Add that to the nerves/adrenalin and too much cider waiting to go on and there you have it. Timing all over the place but good fun. Free if you play and well worth the money lol

You must be talking about a different video 😛