Beginner impro Why are dominant 7th chords called dominant?

[cappers]

I am trying to get my head around chords!

I think I understand Major 7th construction: major chord arpeggio 1,3,5 + 7, whereas the Dominant 7th has a flattened 7th so 1,3,5 + 7b.

CMaj7: C E G B ->** EDom7: CDom7 or more correctly C7: C E G Bb (Thanks @PiccoloPirate)
DMaj7: D F# A C# -> DDom7: D F# A C
EMaj7: E G# B D# -> EDom7 E G# B D
etc

My question is why is it named 'dominant'? I believe the 7th is a 'leading tone', so is the 'dominance' the fact that it needs to resolve down to sound correct? Also can it resolve up instead?

Thank you.

** edited to correct typo

 

[Pete Effamy]

If I may, (in Columbo mode) just one more thing.

Although I see from the wonderful internet, that we can call these dominant 7ths (as in the title of this thread) I have always just said dominant 7, or C7, G7 etc. rather than C7th.

In fact to me when it’s a specific chord like that rather than dominant 7 in general, adding “th” as in C7th seems wrong to me. Just saying…

I agree. Thinking about terminology when speaking with other musicians -

ie what have you got in bar 5 over the 7 (seven, not seventh) chord?

People don’t say seventh. They say 7 chord. Meaning an abbreviation for dominant 7. Other chords with an added 7 like minor 7 are always stipulated -

ie what have you got in bar 5 over the minor 7 chord?
EDIT:
Seventh is used like this -

The seventh chord of C major is a B diminished chord

 

[Colin the Bear]

Confused. Doesn't Bm have an F#?😵‍💫

 

[mizmar]

Confused. Doesn't Bm have an F#?😵‍💫

Most people would just correct that to Bdim..
... Or "very small chord" ? ... 😬 😃

 

[Pete Thomas]

Although it makes no difference when speaking, this is where I like to clarify meaning by using Roman vs Arabic numerals.

So when talking about a chord built on a specific degree of a scale we’d say chord I, chord IV etc which differentiates it from intervals such as 3rd, 7th or extensions (9th, 11th, 13th) which do have a “th”

 

[PiccoloPirate]

The seventh chord, in the key of C major, is a B diminished triad. BDF.
The B minor triad is BDF#.
Never heard the 7 chord called the 7th chord.
Even when musicians were not sober. 🤪 Now, let's take that tune around for a 7th time. 👍👍

Imagine three 15 ballad song sets, all in the same key, Max and staff, would have to carry the audience, up the stairs, and pile them on the sidewalk.
Other clubs, just roll them out the door.
Nice to be fluid in any key.

I don't practice tunes in all the keys, only the keys I like for that tune, but do that with scales, arpeggios and other exercises, often with a metronome, a chop masters best friend. 🥰
Makes it easy if any key is called.
Important tunes should be memorized.

 

[Pete Thomas]

And yet the confusing thing is that it’s overt correct to say the IV chord (or chord IV) is built on the 4th degree if the scale

 

[mizmar]

But that's how language works... And, even more so, a technical or community language.

What you said in post #120 feels familier to me from various, contemporary, sources: "The 7 chord" vs "The 7th note" equally "the 7th chord of the diatonic sequence is diminished" is just as OK as "the 7 chord of the diatonic .." but have slightly different feels... The first suggests You're counting chords, the latter is strongly noun like... And people say "play the 3" meaning 3rd note of the key...

It's custom and practice.

The OP just reflects a perfectly reasonable halfway between everyday English and music-theory Patois.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Confused. Doesn't Bm have an F#?😵‍💫

Don’t be confused! Brain fart on my part.

 

[cappers]

But that's how language works... And, even more so, a technical or community language.

What you said in post #120 feels familier to me from various, contemporary, sources: "The 7 chord" vs "The 7th note" equally "the 7th chord of the diatonic sequence is diminished" is just as OK as "the 7 chord of the diatonic .." but have slightly different feels... The first suggests You're counting chords, the latter is strongly noun like... And people say "play the 3" meaning 3rd note of the key...

It's custom and practice.

The OP just reflects a perfectly reasonable halfway between everyday English and music-theory Patois.

Thanks for clarifying. I put '7th chord' on the title because I had read it that way (somewhere).

Just to check, the accepted convention is the '7 chord' rather than the '7th chord'?
And are the notes named 1,2,3 or the 1st 2nd 3rd of a scale or the 1st degree, 2nd degree of the scale etc?
The Roman numerals indicate the chord type, and Arabic numerals indicate the notes of the chord?
Thank you.

More questions just when I thought I had it in the bag!

 

[cappers]

Not trying to argue the point but I Googled "Seventh chord or seven chord?" and the first entries all said "seventh chord":
No wonder beginners like me get confused!

 

[mizmar]

No wonder beginners like me get confused!

Which is fine. Like I said, it's custom and practice; not a formal, technical language with fixed rules like logic, maths or french.

Like you, I'm not school learned in music; but after some time reading, YouTubeing etc. it sinks in; worts and all; and becomes richer because people's choices start to tell you about their mindset

 

[Colin the Bear]

Thanks for clarifying.

More questions just when I thought I had it in the bag!

You're going to need a bigger bag.🦈

 

[Pete Thomas]

Just to check, the accepted convention is the '7 chord' rather than the '7th chord'?

My method is:

• If it means a dominant type chord, then call it a dominant (chord)
• If you are talking about a specific chord, e.g. the dominant of F then call it C7.
• If it means the chord built on the 7th degree of the scale then call it chord VII.

And are the notes named 1,2,3 or the 1st 2nd 3rd of a scale or the 1st degree, 2nd degree of the scale etc?

I would call them 1st then 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. I might call the 1st tonic (note) but I wouldn’t call the 5th note the dominant, just 5th.

The Roman numerals indicate the chord type,

No they indicate the chord root. The type is indicated by maj7, min7 etc after the chord whether it’s a note name or RN.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think I make have covered this it TTS2 because it is confusing, ie three types of numbers:

• Scale degree based on the tonic
• Scale degree based on the root of the chord
• Size of any interval

 

[cappers]

......
The Roman numerals indicate the chord type, and Arabic numerals indicate the notes of the chord?
........

No they indicate the chord root. The type is indicated by maj7, min7 etc after the chord whether it’s a note name or RN.

Thanks @Pete Thomas, my mistake, I did mean chord root number but phrased it incorrectly. By 'type' I meant maj7, V7 et al.

I think I make have covered this it TTS2 because it is confusing, ie three types of numbers:

• Scale degree based on the tonic
• Scale degree based on the root of the chord
• Size of any interval

I have TTS 1 so looks like I need TTS 2 now!
Cheers.

 

[Targa]

You're going to need a bigger bag.🦈

James Brown - capper's got a brand new bag.

 

[BigMartin]

If I may, (in Columbo mode) just one more thing.

Although I see from the wonderful internet, that we can call these dominant 7ths (as in the title of this thread) I have always just said dominant 7, or C7, G7 etc. rather than C7th.

In fact to me when it’s a specific chord like that rather than dominant 7 in general, adding “th” as in C7th seems wrong to me. Just saying…

Whether right or wrong, it does have historical precedent.

Back in the dark ages (1970s---well, we did have a lot of power cuts) when I was doing ABRSM grade exams on the clarinet, we had to learn dominant 7th arpeggios (with the "th"). And they were referred to by the key in which they were the V chord. That is, the examiner would say "play a dominant 7th in C" and we were supposed to play a G7.

In my head, a 7th chord is a chord with a 7th on top, and a 7 chord (or VII chord) is a chord built on the 7th scale degree of the key we're in.

 

[Dr G]

No they indicate the chord root. The type is indicated by maj7, min7 etc after the chord whether it’s a note name or RN.

Whoa, there’s a plot twist!

maj7 vs min7. That changes more than just the 7th.

Ever play those word games that just change one letter at a time?

Start with a major 7 chord, ex. Cmaj7
Lower the 7 one half step, ex. C7
Lower the 3, Cm7
Lower the 5, Cm7b5 (half diminished)
Lower the root. Name that chord!

Iterate.

 

[Pete Effamy]

a 7th chord is a chord with a 7th on top

But it doesn’t have to be on top. It can be on the bottom… see where definitions get tricky?

 

[BigMartin]

But it doesn’t have to be on top. It can be on the bottom… see where definitions get tricky?

Oh, definitely. But I did say that's what's in my head. It's not what I'd say if someone asked me to write a musical dictionary. And if they did ask me to, the second and final word of my reply would be "off".