Beginner impro Why are dominant 7th chords called dominant?

[cappers]

I am trying to get my head around chords!

I think I understand Major 7th construction: major chord arpeggio 1,3,5 + 7, whereas the Dominant 7th has a flattened 7th so 1,3,5 + 7b.

CMaj7: C E G B ->** EDom7: CDom7 or more correctly C7: C E G Bb (Thanks @PiccoloPirate)
DMaj7: D F# A C# -> DDom7: D F# A C
EMaj7: E G# B D# -> EDom7 E G# B D
etc

My question is why is it named 'dominant'? I believe the 7th is a 'leading tone', so is the 'dominance' the fact that it needs to resolve down to sound correct? Also can it resolve up instead?

Thank you.

** edited to correct typo

 

[Colin the Bear]

I always pick something up from these detailed explanations. Mostly that there's a lot more to it and not to ask.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Thanks for asking. it is easy to overlook the second part of the sentence:

The dominant 7 (sept) is a small third above the dominant note.

You would be right with your assumption of minor and major if the thirds were above the tonic or root note but it is above the dominant, making it the 7 (VII?). Does that explain it better?

It doesn’t really, no.

Seems like a convoluted explanation to me. I’ve never heard of small or large 3rds. Intervals are named already - diminished, minor, major and augmented, perfect and also with the prefix compound when greater than an octave.
Using the words small and large is an over-complication by re-naming something that is already named.

Your use of “(sept)” - is this a typo or are you adding the German word for 7? Also confusing.

I had a harmony lecturer at college who was very knowledgeable. He liked the English language too and would use “flowery” words to enhance his explanations of harmony. Most lessons resulted in 95% of the class being completely baffled. Much of the time the penny dropped for me when I went away and sat at a piano and saw the voice-leading etc. It always seemed very straightforward. It could have been explained/demonstrated better.

We have to use as few words as possible in explaining harmony.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Also, the use of “small” and “large “ 3rds could mean either diminished/minor for small, and major/augmented for large. Or even compound major/augmented 3rds… 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[LostCircuits]

It doesn’t really, no.

Seems like a convoluted explanation to me. I’ve never heard of small or large 3rds. Intervals are named already - diminished, minor, major and augmented, perfect and also with the prefix compound when greater than an octave.
Using the words small and large is an over-complication by re-naming something that is already named.

Your use of “(sept)” - is this a typo or are you adding the German word for 7? Also confusing.

I had a harmony lecturer at college who was very knowledgeable. He liked the English language too and would use “flowery” words to enhance his explanations of harmony. Most lessons resulted in 95% of the class being completely baffled. Much of the time the penny dropped for me when I went away and sat at a piano and saw the voice-leading etc. It always seemed very straightforward. It could have been explained/demonstrated better.

We have to use as few words as possible in explaining harmony.

ok, I think I know where the disconnect happened. I wanted to make sure to use the right terminology and asked Google about intervals from C - Eb and C- E and the answer was small third and large third.

When you said minor or major, my brain associated it with scales, rather than the interval, so yes, you were correct there.

Septim (septime) originates in Latin but is used in German but also in English according to Wiki.

I hope that clears things up.

 

[Pete Effamy]

ok, I think I know where the disconnect happened. I wanted to make sure to use the right terminology and asked Google about intervals from C - Eb and C- E and the answer was small third and large third.

When you said minor or major, my brain associated it with scales, rather than the interval, so yes, you were correct there.

Septim (septime) originates in Latin but is used in German but also in English according to Wiki.

I hope that clears things up.

Yes that makes sense - Google has used small and large to explain a difference.
As for septime… 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Pete Effamy]

Septime - a word used in fencing (swords, not fence panels). Not common usage.

 

[Pete Thomas]

asked Google about intervals from C - Eb and C- E and the answer was small third and large third.

There is a problem asking Google. Google is not a musician.

Septim (septime) originates in Latin but is used in German but also in English according to Wiki.

Again, Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, anyone can add stuff there - ranging from a complete beginner who thinks they know it all to a musicologist who just wants to show the obscure stuff they know about.

And if it's done by classical or early music specialists it can be totally irrelevant to rock, blues, jazz etc.

 

[LostCircuits]

There is a problem asking Google. Google is not a musician.

Again, Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, anyone can add stuff there - ranging from a complete beginner who thinks they know it all to a musicologist who just wants to show the obscure stuff they know about.

And if it's done by classical or early music specialists it can be totally irrelevant to rock, blues, jazz etc.

But right now you sound like you are deliberately trying to misunderstand me. Dominant 7 chords and their origin or where the name comes from should be the same, regardless of musical genres or am I missing something?

 

[Pete Thomas]

But right now you sound like you are deliberately trying to misunderstand me. Dominant 7 chords and their origin or where the name comes from should be the same, regardless of musical genres or am I missing something?

No you are totally correct when talking about dominant 7 chords and I agree the terminology is the same in any genre.

My post was just saying that Google should not be treated as a purveyor of all things correct, and I doubt there is any disagreement about that. Some is good, some is garbage, some may be technically correct but beware of context. Your posts have been good, I had no issue at all with them. It was more of an aside.

 

[LostCircuits]

No you are totally correct when talking about dominant 7 chords and I agree the terminology. are the same in any genre.

My post was just saying that Google should not be treated as a purveyor of all things correct, and I doubt there is any disagreement about that. Some is good, some is garbage, some may be technically correct but beware of context. Your posts have been good, I had no issue at all with them. It was more of an aside.

All is well that ends well, I mean this thread was a journey but I believed it ended up as a good reference for this subject.

And yes, I agree on google or by extension on the internet, everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt!

 

[mizmar]

In this, as always fascinating, video there's an interesting "foot note" at 1:49... Regarding the term "dominant"

View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=uhKXhnT9NJs&t=1m48s

 

[Dr G]

In this, as always fascinating, video there's an interesting "foot note" at 1:49... Regarding the term "dominant"

So it actually has no meaning in harmony? Just a name for the fifth note. That is very not satisfying.

 

[Pete Thomas]

So it actually has no meaning in harmony?

It does.

If some video on Youtube says otherwise we can just ignore it. Except in that video it just talks about what it meant originally, not what it means now. They make that clear so all is good n'est-ce pas?

 

[mizmar]

So it actually has no meaning in harmony? Just a name for the fifth note. That is very not satisfying.

It says it now has meaning in harmony but initially didn't as such... And that's renaissance musicing. Back in hexachord times, there was no dominant...

... Also fascinating, in their video, to see the development of the use of the flat 7

 

[LostCircuits]

It's the battle between the Cantizans and the Tenorizans that was ultimately decided by bringing in the Altizans while the Bassizans stood at the sidelines and watched.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It's the battle between the Cantizans and the Tenorizans that was ultimately decided by bringing in the Altizans while the Bassizans stood at the sidelines and watched.

I’m so happy I wasn’t the ref.

 

[mizmar]

It's the battle between the Cantizans and the Tenorizans that was ultimately decided by bringing in the Altizans while the Bassizans stood at the sidelines and watched.

Amazing we got to page 6 without anyone mentioning that.

 

[Dr G]

It's the battle between the Cantizans and the Tenorizans that was ultimately decided by bringing in the Altizans while the Bassizans stood at the sidelines and watched.

Clearly a case of revisionist history as told by the Cantizans. Tenorizans could have easily dominated them without any outside influence or aid. Their ultimate demise is attributed to the widespread use of baffles and artificial reeds that weakened their immune systems. Due to the subsequent rise of alternative truths, we may never know what really happened.

 

[LostCircuits]

Clearly a case of revisionist history as told by the Cantizans. Tenorizans could have easily dominated them without any outside influence or aid. Their ultimate demise is attributed to the widespread use of baffles and artificial reeds that weakened their immune systems. Due to the subsequent rise of alternative truths, we may never know what really happened.

I absolutely wanted to leave this profound statement to you. I was tempted but who am I?

 

[Pete Thomas]

If I may, (in Columbo mode) just one more thing.

Although I see from the wonderful internet, that we can call these dominant 7ths (as in the title of this thread) I have always just said dominant 7, or C7, G7 etc. rather than C7th.

In fact to me when it’s a specific chord like that rather than dominant 7 in general, adding “th” as in C7th seems wrong to me. Just saying…