Beginner impro Why are dominant 7th chords called dominant?

[cappers]

I am trying to get my head around chords!

I think I understand Major 7th construction: major chord arpeggio 1,3,5 + 7, whereas the Dominant 7th has a flattened 7th so 1,3,5 + 7b.

CMaj7: C E G B ->** EDom7: CDom7 or more correctly C7: C E G Bb (Thanks @PiccoloPirate)
DMaj7: D F# A C# -> DDom7: D F# A C
EMaj7: E G# B D# -> EDom7 E G# B D
etc

My question is why is it named 'dominant'? I believe the 7th is a 'leading tone', so is the 'dominance' the fact that it needs to resolve down to sound correct? Also can it resolve up instead?

Thank you.

** edited to correct typo

 

[Colin the Bear]

Describing sounds and sounds concepts with written words is like painting with smoke.
Then there's other languages. Qapla.

 

[LostCircuits]

I am trying to get my head around chords!

I think I understand Major 7th construction: major chord arpeggio 1,3,5 + 7, whereas the Dominant 7th has a flattened 7th so 1,3,5 + 7b.

CMaj7: C E G B ->** EDom7: CDom7 or more correctly C7: C E G Bb (Thanks @PiccoloPirate)
DMaj7: D F# A C# -> DDom7: D F# A C
EMaj7: E G# B D# -> EDom7 E G# B D
etc

My question is why is it named 'dominant'? I believe the 7th is a 'leading tone', so is the 'dominance' the fact that it needs to resolve down to sound correct? Also can it resolve up instead?

Thank you.

** edited to correct typo

I am not sure there is anything that has not been said yet but let me try to rephrase it:

In major scales, you have the "tonica", that is the base note of the key. In concert C it is the note C.
Then you have the dominant note (V) which is G.
And then there is the sub-dominant (F)
The dominant 7 (sept) is a small third above the dominant note
From what I just read up again in a German music theory publication, the original meaning is that G7 is the natural dominant 7 to C because it wants to resolve to C. All notes in the dominant 7 chord are part of the tonic scale.

In the major 7 chord, you change the small third to a large third and the result is that the 7 is no longer part of the tonic scale, for example an F# in G maj 7 is not part of the major C scale.

Why is dominant called dominant? In a triad, it is the note that is the dominant note, the one that tries to break out. It is the second harmonic over any base note, if you overblow C1 on your sax, you get G2. And, as mentioned earlier, the frequency response curve of the ear is non-linear, favoring the higher notes to be dominant but the person who created the names probably did not know this yet.

A lot of these terms were created a very long time ago when somebody decided to put names to things (nothing has changed).

I don't know if there was anything new in this post for you but maybe just a slightly different wording or perspective?

 

[cappers]

@LostCircuits
Thank you for the detailed explanation.

I had a satori moment this morning when it all seemed to come together and make sense. I used the keyboard to sound triads, 3rd, 5ths, 7ths, b7ths. Then played a chord and checked which notes from its relative scales worked and how (up, down, sideways!) and it clicked. Then on paper I picked a scale, took the 5th and built a modified maj7 chord on it to make the V7. I have a list of many of the chords which I used to check my answers.
So some progress.

Thanks to everyone for their advice.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I am not sure there is anything that has not been said yet but let me try to rephrase it:

In major scales, you have the "tonica", that is the base note of the key. In concert C it is the note C.
Then you have the dominant note (V) which is G.
And then there is the sub-dominant (F)
The dominant 7 (sept) is a small third above the dominant note
From what I just read up again in a German music theory publication, the original meaning is that G7 is the natural dominant 7 to C because it wants to resolve to C. All notes in the dominant 7 chord are part of the tonic scale.

In the major 7 chord, you change the small third to a large third and the result is that the 7 is no longer part of the tonic scale, for example an F# in G maj 7 is not part of the major C scale.

Why is dominant called dominant? In a triad, it is the note that is the dominant note, the one that tries to break out. It is the second harmonic over any base note, if you overblow C1 on your sax, you get G2. And, as mentioned earlier, the frequency response curve of the ear is non-linear, favoring the higher notes to be dominant but the person who created the names probably did not know this yet.

A lot of these terms were created a very long time ago when somebody decided to put names to things (nothing has changed).

I don't know if there was anything new in this post for you but maybe just a slightly different wording or perspective?

Now I’m confused!

Small and large 3rds… minor / major ????

 

[LostCircuits]

Now I’m confused!

Small and large 3rds… minor / major ????

Thanks for asking. it is easy to overlook the second part of the sentence:

The dominant 7 (sept) is a small third above the dominant note.

You would be right with your assumption of minor and major if the thirds were above the tonic or root note but it is above the dominant, making it the 7 (VII?). Does that explain it better?

 

[Pete Thomas]

The dominant 7 (sept) is a small third above the dominant note.

You would be right with your assumption of minor and major if the thirds were above the tonic or root note but it is above the dominant, making it the 7 (VII?). Does that explain it better?

I’m very confused now

 

[Dr G]

Mmmm, stacked thirds are sounding yummy. It must be snack time. I love me a toothsome diminished sammich of stacked minor thirds.

 

[LostCircuits]

I’m very confused now

Dooonnnnnn't!!!

Key of C Major:
C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8=1

C=1 - tonic/tonica/root
F=4 - subdominant
G=5 - dominant

Counting from the dominant note (G) => mixolydian scale, which you need to do to explain the 7
G A B C D E F G
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8=1


The "dominant" chord is G - B - D (or the root chord in the mixolydian scale)
The dominant 7 chord is G - B - D (+ small third to 7) = F or 1-3-5-7 in the mixolydian scale

All notes are part of the Cmaj scale and lead up to resolving the dominant 7 chord to the root.

Just ignore the "name" dominant and look at it as a descriptor for 5th mode (mixolydian) chord but you don't have to learn all those modes if you only remember that the 5th is dominant. Then you have the dominant chord, you throw in a little bit of 7 (small third over the dominant 5 to stay in the mixolydian scale) and there you are, ready to resolve to the root.

It is so simple but so hard to explain if you have a preconception of what dominant means.

Sorry the formatting when it parses my post screws up all the alignments

 

[cappers]

To all......

My initial question about why the V7 chord is called 'dominant' and confusion as to how a V7 chord is made from the major (and harmonic minor) scales has been well and truly answered and I understand now.

To avoid frying my old brain I request that no further explanations are suggested. I am extremely grateful for the time and effort cafe patrons have shown in helping me, thank you

PS
major triad 1,3,5 (2 minor 3rds)
minor triad 1,b3,5 (maj 3rd above minor 3rd)
maj7 1,3,5,7 (maj 7th above major triad or root)
V7 1,3,5,b7 (a.k.a. major-minor 7th: minor 7th above major root)
m7 1,b3,5,b7 (minor 7th above minor root)
m7b5 1,b3,b5,b7 (a.k.a half-diminished 7th: minor 7th above diminished root)
dim7 1,b3,b5,bb7 (diminished 7th above diminished root)
aug7 1,3,#5,b7 (1,3,#5b7)
😉

edited to correct typo

 

[LostCircuits]

To all......

My initial question about why the V7 chord is called 'dominant' and confusion as to how a V7 chord is made from the major (and harmonic minor) scales has been well and truly answered and I understand now.

To avoid frying my old brain I request that no further explanations are suggested. I am extremely grateful for the time and effort cafe patrons have shown in helping me, thank you

PS
major triad 1,3,5 (2 minor 3rds)
minor triad 1,b3,5 (maj 3rd above minor 3rd)
maj7 1,3,5,7 (maj 7th above major triad or root)
V7 1,3,5,b7 (a.k.a. major-minor 7th: minor 7th above root)
m7b5 1,b3,b5,b7 (a.k.a half-diminished 7th: minor 7th above root)
dim7 1,b3,b5,bb7 (diminished 7th above root)
aug7 1,3,#5,b7 (1,3,#5b7)
😉

I know why your brain is fried when you try to force the dominant to be a tonic.... The dominant 7 chord for C is G7 not C7

Edit: And just for fun the C(dominant)7 chord is for the root of F, hence the Bb

 

[cappers]

Dooonnnnnn't!!!

..............

The "dominant" chord is G - B - D (or the root chord in the mixolydian scale)

Just ignore the "name" dominant and look at it as a descriptor for 5th mode (mixolydian) chord.......

Ha! I'm sure I mentioned in one of my ramblings in this thread the mixolydian scale.

Enough already

 

[cappers]

I know why your brain is fried when you try to force the dominant to be a tonic.... The dominant 7 chord for C is G7 not C7

Where did I say that?
Incorrect obviously, must have been during my confused phase 😳

 

[mizmar]

To avoid frying my old brain I request that no further explanations are suggested

Café 😄saxophone 😆 stop 😅 explaining 😂 theory 🤣 when 😭 enough has beenSaid

 

[Dr G]

Café 😄saxophone 😆 stop 😅 explaining 😂 theory 🤣 when 😭 enough has beenSaid

@cappers Have you considered not clicking on the thread anymore?

Someone has to be the first to stop. (And no peeking allowed either.)

 

[Pete Thomas]

Counting from the dominant note (G) => mixolydian scale, which you need to do to explain the 7

Er now I’m confused.

PS
major triad 1,3,5 (2 minor 3rds)
minor triad 1,b3,5 (maj 3rd above minor 3rd)
maj7 1,3,5,7 (maj 7th above major triad or root)
V7 1,3,5,b7 (a.k.a. major-minor 7th: minor 7th above major root)
m7 1,b3,5,b7 (minor 7th above minor root)
m7b5 1,b3,b5,b7 (a.k.a half-diminished 7th: minor 7th above diminished root)
dim7 1,b3,b5,bb7 (diminished 7th above diminished root)
aug7 1,3,#5,b7 (1,3,#5b7)

Now I’m more confused.

Edit: And just for fun the C(dominant)7 chord is for the root of F, hence the Bb

And even more confused. The root of F is F.

This is supposed to be a beginners thread!

 

[LostCircuits]

Er now I’m confused.

Now I’m more confused.

And even more confused. The root of F is F.

This is supposed to be a beginners thread!

Yes, and every beginner will understand it.

The root of F is F
The dominant chord (triad) of the F scale is C
The dominant 7 chord of the F scale is C + the 7th note over the root of the chord (C) but in the F scale => Bb => C(dominant)7

Whereas the Cmaj7 stays in the Cmaj scale and therefore has B as the 7th

 

[cappers]

@cappers Have you considered not clicking on the thread anymore?

Someone has to be the first to stop. (And no peeking allowed either.)

Good idea Dr G, I might click the unwatch button and leave you lot to argue amongst yourselves

 

[mizmar]

(And no peeking allowed either.)

Rubber necking, more like.

I might click the unwatch button

... but you we still can't look away

 

[Targa]

Yes, and every beginner will understand it.

The root of F is F
The dominant chord (triad) of the F scale is C
The dominant 7 chord of the F scale is C + the 7th note over the root of the chord (C) but in the F scale => Bb => C(dominant)7

Whereas the Cmaj7 stays in the Cmaj scale and therefore has B as the 7th

Beginners might but I've been playing 20 years and I haven't understood a word of any of it.

 

[wakyct]

It's like the difference between theory and practice.

If you spend enough time on theory you'll have no time to practice.