Where Have All the Saxophones Gone?

[CliveMA]

I would not have given up the clarinet at 15 if I was young today. There are so many more opportunities to socialise with other musicians today. There was almost none when I was a teenager.

 

[GCinCT]

To those who think online learners are not playing with others, you really have to get an Instagram account. The online social media is more social than real life. Think of it as real life with all the waiting around doing nothing removed. Don't feel sorry for young people. They have far more opportunities than ever.

Anyone, including all of us, can enjoy this new technologically social world, too.

Technology is a wonderful thing and it does offer so many additional opportunities. In my mind, it will never replace actual human contact. Many young people have very awkward social skills when dealing with people face to face. I hope I never see the day when the only social interaction is at a distance. On a permanent basis. We are there temporarily (hopefully) now.

 

[CliveMA]

Technology is a wonderful thing and it does offer so many additional opportunities. In my mind, it will never replace actual human contact. Many young people have very awkward social skills when dealing with people face to face. I hope I never see the day when the only social interaction is at a distance. On a permanent basis. We are there temporarily (hopefully) now.

I thought so, too, before I worked in a Call Centre for 12 months. Almost all my fellow workers were early 20's, some younger. Their social skills were amazing!

Modern workers receive a lot of professionally produced social training of a type that simply did not exist years ago. And I worked in technical sales for 25 years. The courses I was taight years ago were very basic compared with what modern workers reveive today.

I suspect young people are very withdrawn when among just older people but, when engaged in a mixed social setting, in my experience, they are far better at socialising than older people. In a way their silence around older people is a learned behavior because they feel alienated by them.

 

[Wade Cornell]

To those who think online learners are not playing with others, you really have to get an Instagram account. The online social media is more social than real life. Think of it as real life with all the waiting around doing nothing removed. Don't feel sorry for young people. They have far more opportunities than ever.

Anyone, including all of us, can enjoy this new technologically social world, too.

Have you ever tried any of the (supposedly) instantaneous jamming sites? It's nothing like real time jamming, not only due to your looking at a little screen in which you can't give each other visual clues, you also have imbalance of volumes, limitations of pickups, and a latency that screws it all up. This is physics 101 you can't go faster than the speed of light so the signal has a lag of from 15 to 30 ms. That might not seem like much but it will defeat most grooves.

It would be incredibly naive to think that those using this technology wouldn't rather play live with each other. Other formats using file sharing are based on studio time working with a track to add your part, edit and post back. This is something we see and hear all the time, but if you ask those who do this a lot (I've posted more than 700 tracks through the internet), those who are improvisers or jammers will mostly say they'd rather play live.

The file sharing group I work with (Wikiloops) hosts a live jam once a year. It sells out immediately with players coming from all over the world for the opportunity to play live with those they have played with on line. I go half way around the world when it's on just for that opportunity.

It was once thought that music boxes and player pianos would replace live musicians. Has it happened? Recording could have also replaced live acts, but that didn't happen either. It's however true that local music venues have closed, and other technologies are keeping audiences entertained. That, is for real. However musicians who love to play will always seek each other out and whenever/wherever, if possible play together live.

 

[CliveMA]

musicians who love to play will always seek each other out and whenever/wherever, if possible play together live.

Technology is an enabler not the whole answer.

It is the modern socialising technology that enables musicians to know about each other and to arrange to meet up! When I was a kid I knew one other clarinettist in my town (and she was a bitch excuse the language) and I had no way of meeting any others. Now, almost everyone self-identifies on shared online interest groups and you can meet up much more easily if that is what you want.

But not everyone wants that. I don't actually. It is a very poor use of my limited time. And my saxophone goals seem radically different to others so there is no point. That view may change but I doubt it.

 

[John Laughter]

Some interesting numbers that we have found. Between 1955 and 1965 the combined U.S. and U.K. Top 40 Billboard hit records had "approximately" 397 songs that featured a sax solo or instrumentals that featured just the sax for that 10 year period. Between 2000 and 2019 there are "approximately" 27 Top 40 hits (that we have found so far) in the U.S. and U.K. that feature a sax solo with several hits using "loops" rather than a live studio musician.

 

[Wade Cornell]

I hope that at some point you can have the opportunity to have a great jam with others, or be part of a band (maybe you've already done this?) . I consider myself a hermit, yet jump at opportunities to play live. Oddly one of the frequent gigs I do is with DJs. Yea, music that's mostly created electronically. The kick of this is that the DJs and dancers respond extremely enthusiastically to something that's live and not just more Duff Duff. Although live music venues aren't doing very well, dance venues are still thriving and they seem to want to incorporate a live player. I know there are others on this site who are doing similar gigs.

There's no denying that social media is rampant in younger generations, and it will replace many things. We are a very social species (well not me so much personally), so thrive on interactions. However there is no replacing face to face contact. Even people who fall in love via the internet seem to need to meet up and "make it real". Sporting participation, dancing, restaurants, etc. are not dying, they are thriving.

IMHO the pendulum is still swinging with face to face social interaction (including music?) the counterbalance.

 

[CliveMA]

Some interesting numbers that we have found. Between 1955 and 1965 the combined U.S. and U.K. Top 40 Billboard hit records had "approximately" 397 songs that featured a sax solo or instrumentals that featured just the sax for that 10 year period. Between 2000 and 2019 there are "approximately" 27 Top 40 hits (that we have found so far) in the U.S. and U.K. that feature a sax solo with several hits using "loops" rather than a live studio musician.

And what are the figures for the total music market including streaming and social media given that Top 40 is a dramatically shrinking percentage of the total? Arguably, top 40 is irrelevant these days and has been for some time.

Is there any research to say whether Top 40 is even representative of what people actually list to? We'd really like to know the proportion of what is listened to. Anecdotally, I'd suggest, most people's music listening is not Top 40. Radio is limited to car commutes. When I'm on Spotify I never listen to Top 40.

 

[CliveMA]

I hope that at some point you can have the opportunity to have a great jam with others, or be part of a band (maybe you've already done this?) .

I jammed with others with my flute when I was younger but I had no idea what I was doing. I'm sure it sounded awful. I'm meh about the experience.

The idea of playing in a band horrifies me actually (especially marching bands). I much prefer the freedom of solos with either no or one other accompaniment (maybe piano or guitar). And I don't want any ongoing scheduled obligation to others. That sort of restriction on my life is over.

Mostly I simply play slow romantic music for my wife and I. I am a poet so I write the lyrics (and rewrite popular song lyrics). I mainly want to learn how to better compose romantic music. Lyrics are very easy for me but music composition I know very little about so it is quite a challenge. I love the sound of my Soprano and of my Tenor (and my flute) and so does my wife (luckily).

This is an example of the type of music I'd love to be able to write and play:
Gianni Vancini duet.

 

[CliveMA]

Now that I think about it, I think I stopped listening to Top 40 about the time Disco became popular in the 1970s!

 

[Wade Cornell]

I wish you well in your poetic and musical quest.

 

[CliveMA]

I wish you well in your poetic and musical quest.

Thanks. Kevin Bolton gives a soulful rendition of Ain't no sunshine when she's gone Kevin captures exactly the mood of music I'm interested in creating and playing on Tenor. I'd normally personalise the lyrics to give them more meaning. And I'd prefer no backing track although in this case its soulful except the guitar playing is substandard to my ears.

 

[CliveMA]

I do like listening to Jams such as Grace Kelly, Studio Jams "Georgia on my Mind". But I don't believe I would ever have the capability to participate. One step at a time and if that is forever out of reach, I'm OK with that.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Grace is an amazing talent. So much energy and great showmanship as well. A real entertainer.

Stay safe and well.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Grace is an amazing talent. So much energy and great showmanship as well. A real entertainer.

Stay safe and well.

I’m surprised that you like Grace’s playing Wade - she’s very derivative.

 

[CliveMA]

I’m surprised that you like Grace’s playing Wade - she’s very derivative.

Grace Kelly's Feels Like Home won 2018 John Lennon Award Out of thousands of submissions from across the world, “Feels Like Home” was selected as the Grand Prize winner for the Country genre in December 2018 and then as a Lennon Award winner in May 2019 by popular online vote.

None the less, the melody sounds very like I've heard it before and the lyrics are the usual cliched unoriginality of pop songs.

But, I like it!

 

[Pete Effamy]

Grace Kelly's Feels Like Home won 2018 John Lennon Award Out of thousands of submissions from across the world, “Feels Like Home” was selected as the Grand Prize winner for the Country genre in December 2018 and then as a Lennon Award winner in May 2019 by popular online vote.

None the less, the melody sounds very like I've heard it before and the lyrics are the usual cliched unoriginality of pop songs.

But, I like it!

I know who she is. Wade is vocal about not liking “same-old”. In this video, she is.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Grace Kelly's Feels Like Home won 2018 John Lennon Award Out of thousands of submissions from across the world, “Feels Like Home” was selected as the Grand Prize winner for the Country genre in December 2018 and then as a Lennon Award winner in May 2019 by popular online vote.

None the less, the melody sounds very like I've heard it before and the lyrics are the usual cliched unoriginality of pop songs.

But, I like it!

You don’t like Ray Charles? Now he was a one-off.

 

[thomsax]

Here is an jazz cronicle about "engelsk saxofon" in popmusic by the swedsih jazz muscian Johan Norberg. Of course lots of jazz snobbism in his thoughts. And I'm not going to translate what he is saying!!. I think there is bad sax in jazz as well. I'm with Frank Zappa when it comes to jazz; "Jazz is not dead ... it just smells funny"

Jazzkrönika: "Engelsk saxofon" - Jazzradion

"Enligt popmusikens enkla regelverk är kommersiell framgång nästintill förväxling liktydigt med kvalitet"

sverigesradio.se

 

[JayeNM]

Technology is a wonderful thing and it does offer so many additional opportunities. In my mind, it will never replace actual human contact. Many young people have very awkward social skills when dealing with people face to face. I hope I never see the day when the only social interaction is at a distance. On a permanent basis. We are there temporarily (hopefully) now.

I actually agree with this 100%. I think while modern telecom has its benefits, it has also become the new norm and this has significantly diminished direct, appropriate social interaction.

I thought so, too, before I worked in a Call Centre for 12 months. Almost all my fellow workers were early 20's, some younger. Their social skills were amazing!

That's funny, and contrary to my experiences. I have found for the most part the absolute worst 'customer service' agents to deal with are ones who are quite young. There may be (policy-mandated) politeness, but things such as really hearing what the issue is, thinking on your feet instead of just pigeonholing the issue and giving pat answers, not only making an effort to try to solve but also making an honest effort to just responding to the specific query at hand....less than impressive.

This doesn't only occur on the phone or live chat, it occurs across the counter in personal interaction as well.

Just as texting, thus having one's nose constantly buried in their smart phone resulting in obliviousness to what is going on in the 'real' real-time around them....is the new norm of personal communication, yet completely 'detached' in a number of very key ways....teh online jamming thing strikes me as the same.

It's a stand-in....or at best one tool in a toolbox....but when/if it ever becomes the normal modus operandi, it's ultimately gonna be a significant detriment to music, and musicians.

The idea of playing in a band horrifies me actually (especially marching bands). I much prefer the freedom of solos with either no or one other accompaniment (maybe piano or guitar). And I don't want any ongoing scheduled obligation to others. That sort of restriction on my life is over.

Some people are like that. I'd say maybe 10% of musicians I know are like that (except for guitarist-singers, which would be 50% - terrified of having to do something other than their own thing, that particular guitar-vox segment is).

But many musicians would counter that by remaining in your comfort zone and intentionally avoiding playing , in person, with others...you are actually hampering your development. And not only development, but....fun as well.

But as I said I know some players who do this, so it's not up to me to judge. I just think that m.o. sells yourself short of a lot of rich, musical (and personal) interaction.

And I think that hits the nail on the ehad as to why so many find today's 'musical products'...sterile and flatlining. The interaction between musicians is diminished, or in many cases not even present.