Ligatures What Ligature do you prefer and why?

[lydian]

@Pete Thomas , do you have any lamps at home with fabric shades? If so push on the shade with your finger. Does it deflect? Now push on the lamp. Does it deflect? The thing is if you apply more force to fabric, even very taught fabric, it's going to stretch. If you apply the same extra force to metal, it isn't, at least not nearly as much as the fabric.

Some, like @Wonko, like this dampening effect. I don't like it, but it does exist. It's not due to my imagination or incompetence.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The thing is if you apply more force to fabric, even very taught fabric, it's going to stretch. If you apply the same extra force to metal, it isn't, at least not nearly as much as the fabric.

Yes I agree that seems to be the case.

 

[skeller047]

I have, over the years, bought too many ligatures. Many of them come with mouthpieces, which I also have bought too many of (sorry, Mom, for the bad English). But I have a few that I have bought separately.

My current stable is this:

• Tenor, Phil-Tone Tribute, came with a Theo Wanne Enlightened Ligature, now use a cheap D’Addario/Rico inverted 2-screw.
• Tenor, Link STM, use the included original ligature which is not bad, but a bit fiddly. This is a new mouthpiece, so I’m not sure if I will keep using it, but will probably change to a Selmer 404 at some point. I bought 3 of these when I found they were no longer being made. Either that or a D’Addario/Rico inverted, which used to be but is no longer made to fit these pieces.
• Alto, 10MFan Alto Madness 7, I use a BSS ligature. Will probably change this to a Bonade inverted at some point, the BSS is hard to center on the reed. Or perhaps an Echo Brass Buescher 3-band copy.
• Alto, 10MFan Alto Madness 6, I use a D’Addario/Rico cheap inverted 2-screw. The mouthpiece is gray marble HR, so the nickel plated ligature looks good. Works beautifully.
• Soprano, I have 2 10MFan Virtuoso pieces, each with a different horn. One has a D’Addario H-ligature, the other a Bonade inverted.

I prefer inverted ligatures, because I have found that sometimes a standard ligature will dig in and pinch the bark of the reed. Of the inverted ones, I like Bonade the best. The two-rail system they use is least damaging to the reed stock.

I also prefer 2-screw ligatures because it is possible to tighten either the top or bottom screw more, which does slightly change the sound. Loosening the top screw allows the reed to lift ever so slightly, which darkens the tone a bit. Unlike a fabric single screw (Rovner) where this effect is due to the ligature design, I can control the amount of lift.

I would use Bonade inverted on every mouthpiece if I could, but they are only made in “standard” sizes, which keeps them out of the running for Link STM and similar pieces. The “El-cheapo Rico” and D’Addario H-ligature are adequate substitutes. The Echo Brass Buescher 3-band copies are excellent, but expensive.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

"Some, like @Wonko, like this dampening effect. I don't like it, but it does exist. It's not due to my imagination or incompetence."

Without a scientific analysis, of metal vs fabric ligs, it's just the player's opinion.
Subjective, objective, whatever. 🧐
Wonder if the Lads, down under, at UNSW, have tested this.
Will log on and ask when possible.

 

[turf3]

If the back of the reed isn't flat, then how a ligature clamps it will have an effect. Yes, if you have a poor joint, of a convex surface to a flat surface, the details of the clamping will affect performance. Or, you could spend $20 on a small penknife and a straightedge, make sure reed backs are flat (and yes, you may have to flatten them a couple times), and then what ligature you use has almost no meaning. It's dead easy to make a repeatable clamped joint between two flat surfaces.

 

[Woodpad]

It would be a Physics I college course exercise. Just the spring range of metal, it's modulus of elasticity (resistance to stretching) is much greater. Why one doesn't need to torque down the screws on a metal lig hard, just snug. The same forces would be involved with say, a canvas material, only thing is it would stretch more before achieving the same force or "tightness".

However, that was a course I took in 1976. Since, had no need to use it. Maybe someone here with the background and theory fresh in their mind can chime in.

This is why the Rovner and Rovner-like ligs work quite well, probably accounts for their more recent popularity, especially certain models. Plus, they don't don't have a tendency to scratch rubber and plastic mouthpiece finishes, although over long use have rubbed the polished surfaces undeath dull on my mouthpieces.

In the standard two screw and one screw ligs the screws are parallel to the table, so they can't directly put pressure on the reed. By turning the screws you put some energy in a system with three elastic components, the lig material around the mouthpiece, the reed and the mouthpiece itself. The circular part is turned on by the screw(s) and exerts force on the reed and mouthpiece just like a balloon exerts force on the air it contains. Both mouthpiece and reed are sturdy enough to counter this force with minimal deformation. Now you have a static system that keeps its energy until the screw(s) are loosened.

Another type of lig has a scew that can directly put force on the reed, such as the ligs used by Lawton and Hummel. Here the same elastic system takes over after the screw is turned, but the cicular part consists of a section of the mouthpiece.

A very small amount of energy is lost by permanent deformation of the elastic material. As you can use a lig for decades this isn't much, except when you crank up the screws.

 

[Saxlicker]

I stick to the lig that came with the mouthpiece if it doesn't slip or is awkward.
Some Super tone master (STM) ligs are rubbish of course.
If I can't get on with it for those reasons, these days I stick with a basic, no fuss lig that works.
Typically
Hard rubber Tenor = Selmer 2 screw
Hard Rubber alto = Selmer 2 screw
Metal Tenor = Original Berg lig, STM lig or Selmer 402
Metal alto = STM lig

 

[eb424]

I think that’s true, but I hope someone with more scientific knowledge than me can show me to be right or wrong: surely once a screw is tighten enough to cause some pressure, ie enough to hold the reed, it is irrelevant whether that pressure (or force?) is elastic or not.

Another way to think of this: if there is a 50kg weight on the floor with a rope attached, and I can lift it 22 inches, is that any different to the weight with a bungee attached and I lift it 22 inches?

Yes..over time the elastic will stretch. You will only lift it 20" ( just a theorhetical measurement) with the same force. You will have to lift it 22 inches plus the length of the stretch.

 

[eb424]

@Pete Thomas , do you have any lamps at home with fabric shades? If so push on the shade with your finger. Does it deflect? Now push on the lamp. Does it deflect? The thing is if you apply more force to fabric, even very taught fabric, it's going to stretch. If you apply the same extra force to metal, it isn't, at least not nearly as much as the fabric.

Some, like @Wonko, like this dampening effect. I don't like it, but it does exist. It's not due to my imagination or incompetence.

I think from previous experience that metal will stretch. Memory takes it back but a lot slower. I had a selmer lig that sooo nearly fitted the link but was maxed out after using for a week it was fine. Also i use a sax holder and have to adjust every time i use it.

 

[jazzdoh]

The Echo Brass Buescher 3-band copies are excellent, but expensive.

Love the look of these too but as you say expensive, but cheaper than the original Brilharts and if your name was say Brian Blessed then the BB lig might just be worth it, I have a Chinese three band lig that came with a mouthpiece, looks good but is crap as a ligature.

 

[eb424]

I only use either of the links these days. I found the original lig doesnt hold the legeres very well it moves from side to side. I found an inverted rovner platinum holds it well. I like the tone. I have a winslow that fits wll and holds the reed. The platinum is nearly as long as the table ( part of the mouthpiece it sits on ??). I do wonder if this muffles it..

 

[Grumps]

I choose a ligature when comparing them for their response; which for me is a sensation I can only explain by how long a note tends to stick to the reed. The less I feel, the better the response. Francois Louis Ultimates gave me better response on alto, tenor and bari RPC mouthpices than the two-screws that came with them or others that I've tried in comparison. Once I settle upon them, they stay and I don't look back. So I've played these setups for well over a decade now, if not almost two. They are contraptions though, and you have to get used to adjusting them. Once that's done though, they're not a pain at all with a proper cap (I use a regular bass mouthpiece cap over the ones I use for tenor and bari, and stock slide one that works better with my alto mouthpiece).

On soprano I use a very open Super Session with a Rovner Dark. Once again, the response with the Rovner beat the two-screw. I also have one of those Rovners with the two long bars that I use on my spare alto test-play mouthpiece. Two-screws for my spare (test-play) bari, tenor and soprano mouthpieces.

 

[Jimmymack]

I have four that I cycle through when the sickness gets me and the results are always the same. I have Francois Louis that works pretty well but I like the least, I have a BG that sounds good but gets very wet for some reason, I have a string piece bought from an independent fellow in Greece during covid times, a K-lig, that I actually like the most but is a real faff to use and I have a Zak, also bought during covid times, that works well and is easy to use but doesn't have to richness of the K-lig to my ears. I also have a D'Addario H lig, that came with a mouthpiece, but that doesn't get out so much because it has two screws.

In the end I use the Zak almost all the time, it works, responds consistently well, doesn't get the table wet and sounds fine, if it doesn't sound the way I want I live with it or adjust the reed until it does. They all sound near enough the same anyway, they just feel different, sometimes.

 

[Grumps]

When I got my first Francois Louis contraption, I felt a noticeable difference when doing a lower note pinky exercise on a 10M I had at the time. I switched back and forth and just got cleaner play with the FL over anything else I tried. That experience is what had me try them on alto and bari as well; all RPC mouthpieces. Now when Ron was alive, he'd tell you to use the two-screw he'd send with his pieces... and I do still have them. But once I've made an equipment choice, I no longer look back or covet the gear du jour. They're just tools for getting out what's inside of us and the less we fuss with them the more we have time to do the good stuff.

 

[Jimmymack]

The pinky is where I find the most difference, odd thing. I also play an RPC.

 

[Ghr9204]

The thing is if you apply more force to fabric, even very taught fabric, it's going to stretch. If you apply the same extra force to metal, it isn't, at least not nearly as much as the fabric.

What makes the Rovner's and similar canvas cloth / Naugahyde® & similar synthetic ligs successful is one doesn't need to tighten them to the point of plastic deformation (the material remains stretched after releasing tension), to fasten a reed. Over time, they may stretch a little from cyclic fatigue, but not enough to lose their ability to keep the reed snug.

None of mine have failed thus far. Of course if one consistently over does it, then maybe they should stick to metallic ligs.

Of course I haven't tried their "light" style ligs, which look more cord-like or rubber band like. But even they may in theory demonstrate it does take much force to fasten a lig.

 

[Dr G]

I think from previous experience that metal will stretch. Memory takes it back but a lot slower. I had a selmer lig that sooo nearly fitted the link but was maxed out after using for a week it was fine. Also i use a sax holder and have to adjust every time i use it.

That is a sign that it was overtightened - you exceeded the elastic limit. The alloys used in ligatures are not among those considered as having “memory”.

 

[Dr G]

I think that’s true, but I hope someone with more scientific knowledge than me can show me to be right or wrong: surely once a screw is tighten enough to cause some pressure, ie enough to hold the reed, it is irrelevant whether that pressure (or force?) is elastic or not.

Another way to think of this: if there is a 50kg weight on the floor with a rope attached, and I can lift it 22 inches, is that any different to the weight with a bungee attached and I lift it 22 inches?

Tight is tight - it’s engineering, and turf3 has already addressed that quite well.

As to why fabric vs metal may sound different, I have already provided a physics-based argument in the appropriate thread, but here we are:

Ligatures - Does a ligature make a difference to, or affect, the sound?

Don't believe AI. Don't believe Reddit. Don't believe the sales talk. These are the facts.

cafesaxophone.com

“In the second order, there is the question of whether the high frequency vibrations emitted from the reed experience the same boundary effects - metal vs “soft” ligatures. There is certainly a difference in the impedance mismatch. In one instance, vibrations will be transmitted, in the other, vibrations will be reflected.”

The bottom line in this approach is that high frequency vibrations from the reed are effectively absorbed by the fabric ligature, thus some of the vibrational modes of the reed are damped.

 

[skeller047]

The bottom line in this approach is that high frequency vibrations from the reed are effectively absorbed by the fabric ligature, thus some of the vibrational modes of the reed are damped.

That may be true. I think the darkening effect of fabric ligatures is mostly due to the ligature being flexible, and allowing the reed to lift slightly from the table. I can get a similar effect from loosening the front screw on a two-screw metal ligature. (But the effect is under my control, which is why I prefer the metal two screw ligatures…)

I note that Dexter Gordon kept the ligature on his Link very far to the back, perhaps for this reason.

 

[Pete Thomas]

high frequency vibrations from the reed are effectively absorbed by the fabric ligature,

Are you able to say how high, e.g. which frequencies are absorbed by the fabric?