Tone or Sound What is a sincere saxophone sound and who has it?

[dexdex]

Johnny Hodges or Tab Smith? You can imitate a sincere sound.

Yeah, obviously.
Hodges didn’t need to imitate anyone. And on top of that, when you (try to) imitate him, the huge scoops and pitch bends he plays sound corny. Cherchez l’erreur. This is where the boundary between sincerity and fake must be sitting.

 

[thomsax]

Yeah, obviously.
Hodges didn’t need to imitate anyone. And on top of that, when you (try to) imitate him, the huge scoops and pitch bends he plays sound corny. Cherchez l’erreur. This is where the boundary between sincerity and fake must be sitting.

I'm trying to say that a sincere saxophone sound can be achieved in many ways. I have a sincere sound but sounds terrible. just a few like my sincere sound. Created by myself. My lips, oral cavity, throat, lungs, diaphragm, core ..... and of course my brain created my sincere saxophone sound. All players are unique.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Teaching this tune, on piano, to a Gal in C, but she wants to play along with this sincere Alto Sax version.
No problema, I told her, first memorize it in C then we'll do a play along with Pollack and I found one with Hamilton on Tenor.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jNIp4a7-KI&t=183s&pp=2AG3AZACAQ%3D%3D

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqGV7rNbBwU&t=45s&pp=2AEtkAIB

 

[Colin the Bear]

I read that Hodges was a melody C player before he took up alto. All those scoops etc. were part of that instruments repertoire at the time.

 

[Saxlicker]

Not quite sure of the directions the thread is taking now but hey ho....doesn't matter 🙂
I think every musician is being sincere about what they do, else why bother?
But that, like the directions the thread is moving is way off what I mean't.
Just for a final try of explanation,
When I hear
'Example" Hodges play, I hear a sincere musician making beautiful phrases with skill and dexterity.
When I hear
'Example" pepper play, I hear a sincere musician playing a phrase with skill and dexterity (not that it isn't already beautiful) in a way that sounds like it's coming from his soul. Sometimes thats so sweet and sometimes it's rougher round the edges but undoubtably a connection between the player and the tune, coming out how he wants in a triumph over a strive for prettiness.


Maybe

 

[dexdex]

Well, I get the point. Hodges vs Pepper are a good pair. I never heard Hodges live, but have seen Pepper twice. He is indeed a very moving player, no doubt about his sincerity. I also remember seeing someone having had a rough life. Smashed.
From the pictures and the records, Hodges seems more balanced and in peace.
Isn’t what you consider to be a difference in sincerity primarily reflecting a difference of character and lifestyle ?

 

[Saxlicker]

Isn’t what you consider to be a difference in sincerity primarily reflecting a difference of character and lifestyle ?

That could well be part of the reason.
Did Pepper ever not let people know what he's thinking?
Some of his sharings in his autobiography are horrific confessions, he hides nothing it would seem. So plays the same way perhaps.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Probably more to do with physiognomy and social habits, smoking, drinking, BMI etc. imo.

 

[turf3]

Well, I don't know what "sincere" is supposed to mean, but all those great players people are mentioning came up in an era when performers of African-American improvised music were EXPECTED to develop their own sound and concept - which is partly tone, also related to phrasing, note choices, repertoire choices, articulation, and so much else.

Art Pepper tells a story near the end of his autobiography about a cutting contest between him and Sonny Stitt. Two guys with dramatically different ways of playing - Stitt played everything he could, then Art played everything he could; very different, both totally valid.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I am more than a little confused about what is meant by a sincere sound. I was self taught initially and focussed primarily on trying to make the saxophone sound like a saxophone, my only influences originally being Ornette Coleman and Lee Allen. If my goal was to sound like either of them then I think I failed, but if the result was having a personal sound then I personally think I also probably failed. Having said that my wife says she can always tell when she hears something I have played on.

A lot of my work has been commercial, and often I adapted as far as possible to the brief I was given and I would think in those cases most people would think that is not sincere. Or is it? There was a period when I was involved in a lot of swing and jump jive stuff - I suppose then I ideally would have strived to sound like Louis Jordan or else "generic 30s" saxophone sound - and I absolutely never did pull that off but looking back I wonder if that mattered? The result was a sort of hybrid sound.

Still struggling to understand what sincere means in this context. I am highly flattered by LostCircuits including me in his list (assuming he isn't referring to a different Pete Thomas) but I think his mentioning of Kenny G is interesting. Perhaps if I knew what sincere meant in this connect I would totally agree about that.

 

[rhysonsax]

Yes, I'm struggling with the idea behind the thread too.

A couple of points.

1. Other threads on the forum about saxophone "sound" have discussed what is actually included in an individual player's sound and I believe it is much more than could be revealed by frequency analysis of a note that person plays. It's the whole stylistic concept of what they play and how they play it. There are some players that I can reliably identify from just a few seconds of their playing, but I'm not sure there are any I could identify from a single isolated note.

2. I think that some saxophone players really "speak to me" in a way that others don't. Not every note they play, but certain fragments or sometimes whole tunes. I have no idea why that is, but interestingly both Art Pepper and Johnny Hodges are in that category.

3. The saxophone is an instrument that allows the player to really shape their sound and develop an individual style. Can players of other instruments (maybe synthesiser, maybe flute) also have a "sincere sound" in the way @Saxlicker means ?

Rhys

 

[Pete Effamy]

Yes, I'm struggling with the idea behind the thread too.

A couple of points.

1. Other threads on the forum about saxophone "sound" have discussed what is actually included in an individual player's sound and I believe it is much more than could be revealed by frequency analysis of a note that person plays. It's the whole stylistic concept of what they play and how they play it. There are some players that I can reliably identify from just a few seconds of their playing, but I'm not sure there are any I could identify from a single isolated note.

2. I think that some saxophone players really "speak to me" in a way that others don't. Not every note they play, but certain fragments or sometimes whole tunes. I have no idea why that is, but interestingly both Art Pepper and Johnny Hodges are in that category.

3. The saxophone is an instrument that allows the player to really shape their sound and develop an individual style. Can players of other instruments (maybe synthesiser, maybe flute) also have a "sincere sound" in the way @Saxlicker means ?

Rhys

Me too. Does sincere = individual?

Agree that the sound should be viewed as the sum of tone, articulation, phrasing etc.

Sanborn is certainly easy to identify from one note, and many others would be close too, but a few more notes would be needed to split them from someone similar - eg Getz & Scott Hamilton.

If “sincere” is used in this context to mean individual then all the big names are identifiable themselves - even players that were heavily influenced by others (few weren’t) - like the Bebop players. You can pick Adderley, Woods, even Stitt quite easily from Parker.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Yes, I'm struggling with the idea behind the thread too.

I'm still struggling, nonetheless I think it's a great thread.

1. Other threads on the forum about saxophone "sound" have discussed what is actually included in an individual player's sound and I believe it is much more than could be revealed by frequency analysis of a note that person plays.

This is why I differentiate between tone and sound. Tone is very much just the timbre or collection of requires, sound includes all the nuances of pitch, dynamics, phrasing that gives a player more personality.

also have a "sincere sound" in the way @Saxlicker means ?

Ah, so you do know what it means 😉

 

[Pete Thomas]

You can pick Adderley, Woods, even Stitt quite easily from Parker.

But even then I think I might struggling picking any of the more recent players from those, given that the whole jazz education system has been heavily weighted in favour of imitating those players and music of the 50s and 60s. (Cue @Wade Cornell 🙂 )

Teaching - Teaching saxophone: too much jazz of the 50s?

I was going to put this in the current thread Help with the next step please, but this somehow grew into something that should have its own thread I think. This is one of those things that crop up from time to time in various discussions My take is that it is now inevitable that mainstream or...

cafesaxophone.com

 

[rhysonsax]

Ah, so you do know what it means 😉

I sort of get it when @Saxlicker wrote: "a sincere musician playing a phrase with skill and dexterity (not that it isn't already beautiful) in a way that sounds like it's coming from his soul. " [My highlighting.]

But that's not very objective or measurable.

Thinking further about this ..... A really great actor can "inhabit the character" and make you believe in their performance, possibly by tapping into something inside themselves. Perhaps great musicians do the same, even if they are not really feeling it at the time.

Rhys

 

[Pete Thomas]

a sincere musician

I would like to think I am and have been, but (to my immense shame and regret now that I am older) I think there may be a few ex girlfriends that may beg to differ.

 

[Pete Effamy]

But even then I think I might struggling picking any of the more recent players from those, given that the whole jazz education system has been heavily weighted in favour of imitating those players and music of the 50s and 60s. (Cue @Wade Cornell 🙂 )

Teaching - Teaching saxophone: too much jazz of the 50s?

I was going to put this in the current thread Help with the next step please, but this somehow grew into something that should have its own thread I think. This is one of those things that crop up from time to time in various discussions My take is that it is now inevitable that mainstream or...

cafesaxophone.com

I didn’t mention copyists

 

[Saxlicker]

2. I think that some saxophone players really "speak to me" in a way that others don't. Not every note they play, but certain fragments or sometimes whole tunes. I have no idea why that is, but interestingly both Art Pepper and Johnny Hodges are in that category.


Rhys

Oh Dear,
Now we've really had it haven't we.

 

[rhysonsax]

Oh Dear,
Now we've really had it haven't we.

I guess it must be a subjective thing.

Rhys

 

[Pete Thomas]

I guess it must be a subjective thing.

That’s what you think.