Mouthpieces types of hard rubber mouthpieces

[eb424]

So "the types of hard rubber mouthpieces" comes down to:

1) The ones where the manufacturer polishes the outside a lot
2) The ones where they don't.

All righty then.

All that business about chamber volume, chamber size, baffle shape, high baffle, low baffle, step vs. rollover, facing size., facing length, radial vs. other types of facing curve - it's all a bunch of foolishness. What really matters is whether it's very shiny, or less shiny.

They are quite similar..no or low roll over baffle medium chamber on jj just found it funny thats all..the shiny more brittle one resonates more..

 

[Eulipion2]

I bet a different reed would have made all the difference. Soprano reeds are all over the place with respect to shape or geometry/dimensions. I looked at a number of different reeds from different manufacturers and the tip shape and width were totally different with ~ 20% difference in width between brands and round vs. flattened tip shapes. And that will have a huge impact on the tone/timbre of the piece.

Oh, I tried several different reeds with that mouthpiece. It just wasn't good. Maybe I got a dud, maybe the mouthpiece and I were not a good match. I always try whatever I can to make a mouthpiece work. Hate to spend all that money for it not to work.

 

[eb424]

And he's able to determine that it's a composite material by visual inspection apparently.

Dont think I said its composite. But it is not as dense

 

[eb424]

Maybe the thickness or density of material, coupled with sheen makes for a brighter tone hey..

 

[eb424]

V16 mouthpieces are made of hard rubber. They just polish them.

By “not top end” I presume you mean “not expensive”. They are played by many professionals. Vandoren doesn’t make level distinctions on their mouthpieces, all of them are suitable for students and pros alike.

A nice mouthpiece with 3m dsjs. Just not with the legere. I cant play cane plasticovers or legere in the van. Again a bit of tongue in cheek shiny vs not shiny, metal vs hard rubber.

 

[thomsax]

Dukoff "Silverite" metal or Dukoff Vibracom Ebolite composition? The Dukoff Vibra.Com Ebolite composition was just made for alto and tenor and availble in D chamber (high step baffle) and M-chamber (lower step baffle). I t was possible to compare. I think both were edgy. cut through mouthpieces. Are there any mouthpieces made in diffent material that share the same design?

 

[Dr G]

Dont think I said its composite. But it is not as dense

Well, you led the thread with this post:

ok so I ended up buying a Jody Jazz HR* usually play a metal link. I tried a vandoren HR V16 t6 which is made from the shiney almost plastic composite. The piece was really resonant. The JJhr* is made of the duller hard rubber and has a sound to match, not dull but much less resonant. Do you think this is the effects of the material or some other sinister reason. Well happy with the JJ and legere reed.

A nice mouthpiece with 3m dsjs. Just not with the legere. I cant play cane plasticovers or legere in the van. Again a bit of tongue in cheek shiny vs not shiny, metal vs hard rubber.

Please let us know which is which. It remains difficult to tell when you are making serious comments vs “tongue in cheek”.

 

[turf3]

"Oh, I was just kidding" - time-honored response of someone who's gotten caught out on the facts.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Are there any mouthpieces made in diffent material that share the same design?

Very few. We used to make PPT in metal and hard rubber same design same CNC program. Metal was brass but we did do one in silver (925 if I recall).

Recent experiments are more about density rather than actual solid material differences. ie creating composites with density that matches various materials including hr, metal and wood mouthpieces. If anyone is interested I’d prefer to give more info after checking my facts with Ed Pillinger.

 

[turf3]

Phil Barone did some of these experiments and reported "no difference".

 

[Pete Thomas]

Phil Barone did some of these experiments and reported "no difference".

Because he was doing it with high baffle mouthpiece where material is unlikely to make any significant difference. That doesn’t mean it applies to all mouthpieces per se.

 

[Dr G]

Very few. We used to make PPT in metal and hard rubber same design same CNC program. Metal was brass but we did do one in silver (925 if I recall).

Recent experiments are more about density rather than actual solid material differences. ie creating composites with density that matches various materials including hr, metal and wood mouthpieces. If anyone is interested I’d prefer to give more info after checking my facts with Ed Pillinger.

Why density and not sound speed?

 

[turf3]

Because he was doing it with high baffle mouthpiece where material is unlikely to make any significant difference. That doesn’t mean it applies to all mouthpieces per se.

Why do you believe material would matter for low baffle MPs and not for high baffle MPs?

 

[GCinCT]

I play a JJ HR* on my alto, and I have a big, bright tone. Hmm, wonder why we have different sounds? Maybe because we're two different people.

 

[LostCircuits]

Why density and not sound speed?

?
Can you elaborate on this, please?

 

[Targa]

Very few. We used to make PPT in metal and hard rubber same design same CNC program. Metal was brass but we did do one in silver (925 if I recall).

Recent experiments are more about density rather than actual solid material differences. ie creating composites with density that matches various materials including hr, metal and wood mouthpieces. If anyone is interested I’d prefer to give more info after checking my facts with Ed Pillinger.

Have you still got the silver one?
That will be worth twice as much as when it was made.

 

[Dr G]

?
Can you elaborate on this, please?

I recall that some mouthpiece makers have found a threshold of beak thickness that is sensitive to material. Given my experience in physics regarding sound traveling through materials, I suspect that the answer is found in how vibrations travel through the beak, then reflect on the back side to interact with subsequent vibrations. In thicker layers, the vibrations likely damp (decay) before interacting. If my hypothesis is the case, then the critical physical property is sound speed (a property that does not scale with density).

 

[LostCircuits]

I recall that some mouthpiece makers have found a threshold of beak thickness that is sensitive to material. Given my experience in physics regarding sound traveling through materials, I suspect that the answer is found in how vibrations travel through the beak, then reflect on the back side to interact with subsequent vibrations. In thicker layers, the vibrations likely damp (decay) before interacting. If my hypothesis is the case, then the critical physical property is sound speed (a property that does not scale with density).

Oh okay, yes, that is exactly my own experience. Once you hit a certain thickness (or thin-ness) of the beak, it starts resonating. In my own pieces, I always went with the point where the tone abruptly changes when I cut the beak on the lathe (the MPC is mounted on an eccentric mandrel and when it hits the knife (bit), it goes clonk ..clonk .. and then with in a few mils changes to ping .. ping. This is during machining/making of the piece.

And I can clearly feel the beak resonating when I play. I forgot who it was who originally described this and I wasn't even aware of it but I found it very interesting or reassuring that somebody else had beaten me to it. And, FWIW, the roof thickness starts under 1mm at the tip (not including the facing and increases only marginally until it hits the chamber transition/baffle.

So you are saying that the sound speed of the material may be the critical property? I would have to wrap my head around how that translates into vibrational properties - way too much for tonight after dissecting flow meters and Coriolis force deformations. So much to discover every day, ain't life grand?

 

[skeller047]

Vandoren made some noise recently about “high density ebonite”. Not sure how they achieve that, or how it differs from regular hard rubber, but they do make a mouthpiece from it - clarinet only. And charge more…

 

[Dr G]

Oh okay, yes, that is exactly my own experience. Once you hit a certain thickness (or thin-ness) of the beak, it starts resonating. In my own pieces, I always went with the point where the tone abruptly changes when I cut the beak on the lathe (the MPC is mounted on an eccentric mandrel and when it hits the knife (bit), it goes clonk ..clonk .. and then with in a few mils changes to ping .. ping. This is during machining/making of the piece.

And I can clearly feel the beak resonating when I play. I forgot who it was who originally described this and I wasn't even aware of it but I found it very interesting or reassuring that somebody else had beaten me to it. And, FWIW, the roof thickness starts under 1mm at the tip (not including the facing and increases only marginally until it hits the chamber transition/baffle.

Ralph Morgan? The Excaliber has a very thin shell at the beak. I heard the sound as “harsh”.

So you are saying that the sound speed of the material may be the critical property? I would have to wrap my head around how that translates into vibrational properties - way too much for tonight after dissecting flow meters and Coriolis force deformations. So much to discover every day, ain't life grand?

Is sound speed the critical property in this? I say yes. I suggest you include the topics of ultrasonic testing and shock physics in tomorrow’s buffet of knowledge. +1 to being a lifelong learner.