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transposition - please do justify it (once and for all)

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Let's face it...there are musicians with 30-40 years of experience who can't pin down exactly about the origin of transposition let alone explaining why is still here.

You're not listening are you?

I don't want to learn 3 different sets of fingerings.

And I don't suppose anybody else does either when they don't have to.
 
this is probably because there is too much emphasis on the fingers rather than the ears

Unfortunately I have to use my fingers to play the instruments. My ears aren't all that moveable. YMMV
 
My sax alto is a completely different instrument from my sax tenor (of course is an overstatement but it helps) - a similar fingering will produce a 4th why should they be considered to be similar?. That's how to overcome the fingering issue.
If I make mistakes...these are usually due to the transposing communications I must keep with other "transposers" - since transposition is here to stay for a long time - (unfortunately).
 
You're not listening are you?

I don't want to learn 3 different sets of fingerings.

And I don't suppose anybody else does either when they don't have to.

why 3?...there are 2 sets for the Alto and 2 for Tenor - and the one common to both is only for communicating with other transposed musicians - but I'm happy to play with a bass and piano player so we all talk DO, DO, DO!!! that's just great!

Beside, please tell us why you like transposition so much and in what way helps your music...
 

Eb, Bb and C.

Still not listening I see. Sigh.

So I turn up to a musical gig with my flute, clarinet, bass clarinet, tenor and baritone sax. Under the present (transposing) system all the music is written in treble clef and all (apart from lower register clarinets) 6 finger notes are D.
With your system I'd be faced with at least 2 different clefs and 6 finger notes would be either D, F or C.
Which do you think would be easier?
 

LOL :)))...I started reading the first message and thinking - how can anyone love transposition? This is just one of the many examples - how much time is wasted in transposing puzzles like that? I'll check the whole discussion later...

Pete...your position is exactly opposite to mine as you started de-transposed and then opted (coerced?) to transposing (like anyone else). You shouldn't have given up ;} - but surely at least it shows that the more natural way is just to play de-transposed.
 
Eb, Bb and C.

Still not listening I see. Sigh.

So I turn up to a musical gig with my flute, clarinet, bass clarinet, tenor and baritone sax. Under the present (transposing) system all the music is written in treble clef and all (apart from lower register clarinets) 6 finger notes are D.
With your system I'd be faced with at least 2 different clefs and 6 finger notes would be either D, F or C.
Which do you think would be easier?

Actually I think in "DO" (not C) for all instruments (alto, tenor, guitar, piano). Eb and Bb are only for connecting with transposed musicians (e.g. in this forum).
Still I don't get your 3 sets of fingerings for sax because the alto is different from the tenor - 2 different instruments!! (it's not me the one who doesn't listen) - cos' at that point I would add also the fingering for the piano and the one for the guitar (5 in all).
So you think in C for the flute, Eb for alto and baritone, then Bb for tenor and clarinet (bass clarinet too?)...clearly your position is more complex - but if clefs are an issue...why don't use the octave command?
It seems you rely on reading music a lot more than I do so I can't really put myself in your shoes...but I'll give it a try.
 
Pete...your position is exactly opposite to mine as you started de-transposed and then opted (coerced?) to transposing (like anyone else). You shouldn't have given up ;}

Where does Pete say that? I can't find it.

but surely at least it shows that the more natural way is just to play de-transposed.

I don't think that playing a saxophone is a particularly "natural" thing to do anyway. But you seem to be implying that a position of ignorance is better than a position of knowledge.
 
totally agree...but then most of the messages in this forum aren't a big deal really.

We do appreciate that you are following your calling. We humbly offer our deepest appreciation for the precious time you are devoting to an attempt to help to bring light to our miserable and unworthy lives.
 
It seems you rely on reading music a lot more than I do so I can't really put myself in your shoes...but I'll give it a try.

Well there's the answer right there!

If you're not relying on reading the music as you play then you're basically playing by ear, memory, or improvisation.

Typically you don't really need to even think about what actual notes you are playing when you do that. Once you've learned scales and basic fingering you just go with that.

I do that sort of thing all the time. For example, if the band is playing in the key of G, and I'm playing an alto sax, then I know that I need to play in the key of E. So I basically start to think of E as being G in that sense. I don't even think of individual notes, I just think in terms of the key I'm currently playing in. I don't even really need to name it. It's just a fingering pattern for a scale is all.

The reason for transposing instruments is definitely associate with actually reading music real-time-live like in an orchestra or a formal band where the players are actually reading from music that is on a stand right in front of them.

If you aren't relying on reading music, then of course none of this is going to make any sense to you. You don't need to be bothered with any of that. You're either playing by ear, or from memory.

I asked you before to explain what you meant by "de-transposing" your instruments. You simply replied that you always "think" in terms of C. But what does that mean?

Does that mean that I can hand you sheet music written in C and you can just play it straight-away on your saxes by reading the music written in C? If you can't do that, then you haven't "de-transposed" anything. All you've done is learn to play by ear and think in terms of C.

Like I say, for improv that's typically the way it's done anyway. Once a person knows what "key" to play in, they don't even need to think in terms of notes names or keys beyond that. All they are doing at that point is thinking of fingering patterns.

So all you're telling me is that you do the same thing I do. When a band is playing in G you just pick up your Alto sax and play in the key of E and think of that as being the key of G.

I do that all the time for all the keys. Just tell me what key the band is playing in, and I'll find that key on the alto sax real quick. That kind of "transposition" is a snap. And once I know what key I need to play in, I no longer need to think of keys or note names, because from that point forward I'm just playing by ear or by improv anyway. I'm just playing a fingered scale pattern at that point. I don't even need to give it a name at all at that point.

That kind of "transposition" is simple once you've learn the circle of fifths. That's they key right there. For the Alto sax it's extremely easy. Whatever key the band is playing in all you need to do is play in the relative minor key. Of course you play a major key, but the transposition is a snap.

And, like I say, if you are playing by ear or by improv, once you've recognized what key you need to play in it's all just finger patterns from there on out. You no longer need to think in terms of keys or even note names for that matter.

So unless you can play your saxes directly from reading sheet music written in C, then you haven't "de-transposed" anything.
 
So, your views aren't that different from mine - this is just a case of accepting a dated convention because it would be too much troubles to try and update it.
There are similarities between certain instruments like clarinet, sax alto, sax tenor etc. but surely one shouldn't be put off by the fact that the fingering aren't exactly the same - this is probably because there is too much emphasis on the fingers rather than the ears - this is another area were DE-transposing can be beneficial...just a though.

Not really. I happen to think that transposition works better for most people than the alternatives.

Ideal for me is a keyboard that I always play in C, and just set it up to play in the correct key before I start. But I'm not a keyboard player and will probably never be one.
 
Where does Pete say that? I can't find it.



I don't think that playing a saxophone is a particularly "natural" thing to do anyway. But you seem to be implying that a position of ignorance is better than a position of knowledge.

You'll find it here: http://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-transposition.html
apparently he started playing sax without any tutorial and guess what? He played it DE-transported for a while until he went to school.

Dunno really if playing a sax is particularly natural - after playing a bit of piano and guitar the fingering on the sax isn't that intuitive...
Surely the transposition to me looked like an unfathomable dark cloud of nonsense - an insult to logic thinking.
IMHO, a perverse choice was made ages ago by some composers - probably by someone very influential who didn't care much about the players.
 
That link just takes me to a page that explains how useful transposition is. No mention of Pete's schooldays.

Still not listening I see.

Try reading the page you linked to.
 
Well there's the answer right there!

If you're not relying on reading the music as you play then you're basically playing by ear, memory, or improvisation.

Typically you don't really need to even think about what actual notes you are playing when you do that. Once you've learned scales and basic fingering you just go with that.

I do that sort of thing all the time. For example, if the band is playing in the key of G, and I'm playing an alto sax, then I know that I need to play in the key of E. So I basically start to think of E as being G in that sense. I don't even think of individual notes, I just think in terms of the key I'm currently playing in. I don't even really need to name it. It's just a fingering pattern for a scale is all.

The reason for transposing instruments is definitely associate with actually reading music real-time-live like in an orchestra or a formal band where the players are actually reading from music that is on a stand right in front of them.

If you aren't relying on reading music, then of course none of this is going to make any sense to you. You don't need to be bothered with any of that. You're either playing by ear, or from memory.

I asked you before to explain what you meant by "de-transposing" your instruments. You simply replied that you always "think" in terms of C. But what does that mean?

Does that mean that I can hand you sheet music written in C and you can just play it straight-away on your saxes by reading the music written in C? If you can't do that, then you haven't "de-transposed" anything. All you've done is learn to play by ear and think in terms of C.

Like I say, for improv that's typically the way it's done anyway. Once a person knows what "key" to play in, they don't even need to think in terms of notes names or keys beyond that. All they are doing at that point is thinking of fingering patterns.

So all you're telling me is that you do the same thing I do. When a band is playing in G you just pick up your Alto sax and play in the key of E and think of that as being the key of G.

I do that all the time for all the keys. Just tell me what key the band is playing in, and I'll find that key on the alto sax real quick. That kind of "transposition" is a snap. And once I know what key I need to play in, I no longer need to think of keys or note names, because from that point forward I'm just playing by ear or by improv anyway. I'm just playing a fingered scale pattern at that point. I don't even need to give it a name at all at that point.

That kind of "transposition" is simple once you've learn the circle of fifths. That's they key right there. For the Alto sax it's extremely easy. Whatever key the band is playing in all you need to do is play in the relative minor key. Of course you play a major key, but the transposition is a snap.

And, like I say, if you are playing by ear or by improv, once you've recognized what key you need to play in it's all just finger patterns from there on out. You no longer need to think in terms of keys or even note names for that matter.

So unless you can play your saxes directly from reading sheet music written in C, then you haven't "de-transposed" anything.

If a bass player starts a riff in the key of G I also think and play in the key of G and I don't understand why you need to transpose if you aren't reading any music.
Yet, the same apply for reading music - I don't read any Eb or Bb score anymore, only in C - see how simple it all become? one book for both saxes and guitar and piano. Pity I don't read music much (it's no fun) - cos' there are so many scores available for me now - of course I had to de-transpose a couple of Eb books into C because these were specifically written for fingering exercises (you just can't find them in C) - my system is quite consistent (no messing about).
 
Not really. I happen to think that transposition works better for most people than the alternatives.

Ideal for me is a keyboard that I always play in C, and just set it up to play in the correct key before I start. But I'm not a keyboard player and will probably never be one.

excuse me...what are the alternatives? As far as I know there isn't any (except thinking in Do like I do and a few others) - but please do let me know...I'm all EARS.
There is in my opinion too much inertia and lethargy for thinking about alternatives...
 
That link just takes me to a page that explains how useful transposition is. No mention of Pete's schooldays.

Still not listening I see.

Try reading the page you linked to.

Yep, I don't think is there...I must have stumbled across in one link hidden somewhere.
But trust me, that's a real story...I guess some others might have had a similar experience - think about; there is piano at home and when the sax arrives and you got no books you relate the pitches to the piano (pretty logical really).
 
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