Intonation Tips on Baritone octave playing flat

[Nick Wyver]

PPT works well on a ‘36 12M as well as a B900 Yanag.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Push in and play lower on the input pitch.

So often the cause on any sax. Should give bigger sound too with a better core.

 

[mark_addy]

Horn: Buescher Aristocrat
Mouthpiece: Berg Larsen 105 2 SMS (Ebonite)
Reed: Legere 2 / 2.25.

Overall the horn plays well. The low notes are deep and lush, but the upper octave is wildly flat, the only way I can over come it is by applying pressure with my embochure. It feels excessive compared to playing tenor, which I can managed by adjusting tongue/throat.

The Berg won't seal for a pop test. Thinking maybe the table was concave tried with a cane reeds, soaked the reed, changed ligature, just doesn't want to pop.

Any pointers welcome, before I start disappearing down a rabbit hole.

If you are in Manchester (as the LHS of the webpage suggests) and you want to try my metal Link on your horn, I live in Whalley Range and as far as I know have no orally-transmissible diseases (aural transmission...can't guarantee anything. Do you like bad amateur bebop?). But I am about to be away for a fortnight, so up to you.

 

[Colin the Bear]

@Digger2054 you miss my point.

 

[Digger2054]

@Digger2054 you miss my point.

Maybe, the consensus seems to be the older horns prefer larger chambers. They work well on my old Alto/Tenor horns.

IMHO, it would make sense try a larger chamber. The Selmer & 5C aren't 'large' chambered, and I'd potenially still be fighting to get it in tune.

Maybe I am missing the point, but I don't see the point of going 5C, then to Selmer, that still might not fix it... skip that and pick a large chamber piece and adjust to that?

If you are in Manchester (as the LHS of the webpage suggests) and you want to try my metal Link on your horn, I live in Whalley Range and as far as I know have no orally-transmissible diseases (aural transmission...can't guarantee anything. Do you like bad amateur bebop?). But I am about to be away for a fortnight, so up to you.

I am indeed, I live over near Wigan, but "work" in Salford so could sort something out. It would be interesting to compare it to the Berg

 

[turf3]

Well, "Large chamber" is an undefined term.

It used to be that the old "dill pickle" type piece, where the chamber diameter is notably bigger than the cork bore, and the baffle is extremely small or nonexistent, was what you'd call a large chamber; and pieces like a Link where the chamber diameter is essentially the same as the cork bore, would be called "medium". (Meyer even labels their most common design "medium chamber" and its ID is about the same as that of the cork bore.)

Today, after two generations of Berg 0~2 chambers and guys pulling them so far out on Conn baritones that they fall off, and extending necks and mouthpieces, fighting with sharp bell notes and flat palm key notes and the middle E and F being a quarter tone sharp, and then declaring "old horns all play out of tune"; well, now we seem to have decided that yesteryear's "medium chamber" is now "large chamber".

The other screwball thing is that it seems to matter a great deal WHERE the contraction is, and WHAT its shape is. I had a Vandoren mouthpiece with "smallish round chamber" - it did NOT have a high baffle, and the small round chamber wasn't really all THAT small - but it played wicked sharp on my baritone. When I changed to a Meyer (which has the chamber about the same size as the bore, and actually has a low faceted baffle), my "in-tune" position moved at least an inch further on the neck (as measured to the tip of the MP; the shank length and how much cork is exposed is purely mechanical, not acoustic). And, as I've written many many times, not only did the sharp bell key notes and the flat palm key notes pop into tune, the wicked sharp middle E and F snapped into tune, and suddenly the altissimo notes that I could maybe barely eke out on a good day, or not at all, all suddenly popped out of the horn with ease, also all well in tune.

But when I try something like the Jody Jazz DV MP on my baritone, which has a high step baffle but also a large chamber downstream of the baffle, it plays beautifully in tune also, with an appropriately short sounding length similar to the Meyer.

Anyway, there are any number of makers selling variations on the Link design - low short rollover baffle, concave side walls, chamber about the size of the bore. Maybe check out Morgan, who offer several different models of this general design type.

 

[Dr G]

It used to be that the old "dill pickle" type piece, where the chamber diameter is notably bigger than the cork bore, and the baffle is extremely small or nonexistent, was what you'd call a large chamber; and pieces like a Link where the chamber diameter is essentially the same as the cork bore, would be called "medium". (Meyer even labels their most common design "medium chamber" and its ID is about the same as that of the cork bore.)

Yes!

Saxophone & Clarinet Mouthpiece Chamber Tone Information

Mouthpiece chambers shape tone. Large chambers create a warm, spread sound, medium chambers add focus, and small chambers boost brightness and projection.

theowanne.com

Anyway, there are any number of makers selling variations on the Link design - low short rollover baffle, concave side walls, chamber about the size of the bore. Maybe check out Morgan, who offer several different models of this general design type.

Morgan Mouthpieces make good gear. I've been playing their classical tenor mouthpiece for decades. For bari 'pieces on older instruments, I especially appreciate that one can order an elongated shank (XL) for no extra charge.

Morgan Saxophone & Clarinet Mouthpieces | Shop All

Shop Morgan saxophone and clarinet mouthpieces, handcrafted for exceptional tone, response, and consistency. Explore jazz and classical models.

www.morganmouthpieces.com

 

[Alphorn]

Both Morgan and Getasax offer a Gregory/Gale based bari mouthpiece. Morgan using an original mold and Getasax 3D printing their Gale Holywood model. I got a Gale Holywood in 6 = 0.100 a few weeks ago. It has a gorgeous tone and plays extremely well on my Yanagisawa BW-O1. I don‘t know if it is considered a large chamber piece but there is little baffle and the side walls are slightly carved out. It is offered in a long shank version for Conn and Buescher baris. How it compares to the Morgan I have no idea, but these Gregory/Gale models would certainly be worth a try.

 

[Dr G]

Both Morgan and Getasax offer a Gregory/Gale based bari mouthpiece. Morgan using an original mold and Getasax 3D printing their Gale Holywood model. I got a Gale Holywood in 6 = 0.100 a few weeks ago. It has a gorgeous tone and plays extremely well on my Yanagisawa BW-O1. I don‘t know if it is considered a large chamber piece but there is little baffle and the side walls are slightly carved out. It is offered in a long shank version for Conn and Buescher baris. How it compares to the Morgan I have no idea, but these Gregory/Gale models would certainly be worth a try.

Is the chamber the same diameter as the bore? See the link in Post #27 regarding chamber sizes.

 

[mark_addy]

Maybe, the consensus seems to be the older horns prefer larger chambers. They work well on my old Alto/Tenor horns.

IMHO, it would make sense try a larger chamber. The Selmer & 5C aren't 'large' chambered, and I'd potenially still be fighting to get it in tune.

Maybe I am missing the point, but I don't see the point of going 5C, then to Selmer, that still might not fix it... skip that and pick a large chamber piece and adjust to that?


I am indeed, I live over near Wigan, but "work" in Salford so could sort something out. It would be interesting to compare it to the Berg

I 'work' (PT) at the university in Salford, so maybe we could meet there (I don't drive in, but I could probably tie the bari case to my bicycle trailer - and I hav access to our yard where someone could park for an hour). Send me a PM if you want to try to meet in a couple of weeks.
cheers
Mark

 

[Alphorn]

According to Theo‘s definition it is not a large chamber. Since it can be ordered as a long shank version for vintage horns it should work nevertheless.

 

[turf3]

According to Theo‘s definition it is not a large chamber. Since it can be ordered as a long shank version for vintage horns it should work nevertheless.

View attachment 33947View attachment 33948

No. Increasing the length of a mouthpiece that plays too sharp because the chamber's too small, just allows you to pull it out further, which fouls up the scale (flat high notes, sharp bell notes, in other words exactly what the OP's complaining about).

 

[PigSquealer]

but the upper octave is wildly flat

Are both the octave keys opening the same height ? Has the crook vent been cleaned lately.

 

[Dr G]

According to Theo‘s definition it is not a large chamber. Since it can be ordered as a long shank version for vintage horns it should work nevertheless.

View attachment 33947View attachment 33948

That looks like a “small” chamber - the chamber is smaller in diameter than the bore.

 

[Digger2054]

I 'work' (PT) at the university in Salford, so maybe we could meet there (I don't drive in, but I could probably tie the bari case to my bicycle trailer - and I hav access to our yard where someone could park for an hour). Send me a PM if you want to try to meet in a couple of weeks.
cheers
Mark

That's ace I don't work far from the Uni, near media city.

Are both the octave keys opening the same height ? Has the crook vent been cleaned lately.

Not sure about the heights.

Any tips on best to clean the crook vent?

I spoke to my local shop, who have a couple of Bari Syos pieces in that i'm welcome to try, even if they're not right should point me in a direction, plus I can get them to give it the once over.

 

[PigSquealer]

Any tips on best to clean the crook vent?

Sticky octave pip
Tech/maintenance - Sticky octave pip

 

[PigSquealer]

@Digger2054
Your 1937 SN#278xxx baritone would have been delivered with a Buescher Tru-Lay mouthpiece. Multiple facing choices were available upon purchase.
Factory made and tested to the factory engineers designed horn. Find one of these as a source to work from. A starting point. Everything else is just guessing trial and error.

1936-37 Buescher True-Tone Musical Journal Vol 27 No 1 | Saxophone.org

Saxophone.org - created by saxophone players for saxophone players. Features an active saxophone forum, buy sell trade your sax, saxophone museum, sax teachers and more.

www.saxophone.org

Also, Andrew Brown played on Bari in 1937 for Cab Calloway as an Buescher endorsed player. I couldn’t find any information on his setup.

Andrew Brown (musician) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mark_addy]

This lot might be worth a punt?

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[Alphorn]

One last thing about the Gale Hollywood mouthpiece. Looked up on the Wanne homepage when these were in production since they are not exactly modern. Seems Gerry Mulligan played a Gale Hollywood on his Conn 12 m. This doesn‘t proof it will work on a Buescher but at least there could be a chance it might.
Since I have zero experience with vintage horns this is all guess work. I will shut up and leave it to the experts.

 

[PigSquealer]

One last thing about the Gale Hollywood mouthpiece. Looked up on the Wanne homepage when these were in production since they are not exactly modern. Seems Gerry Mulligan played a Gale Hollywood on his Conn 12 m. This doesn‘t proof it will work on a Buescher but at least there could be a chance it might.
Since I have zero experience with vintage horns this is all guess work. I will shut up and leave it to the experts.

Funny, I did the exact same thing. Lots of the makers have pre & post dated offerings. That’s how I came up with looking directly at factory available for 1937.

I’m not a mouthpiece guy either. As a mechanic I think of the original design as starting point.