SYOS

Showing my ignorance, my bari's playing flat

Taz

Busking Oracle
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3,664
I've been playing the bari for a couple of weeks now and I've noticed that it's playing a little flat on one note only. At first I thought it may have been caused by the stock mouthpiece, but I've just received a couple of decent mpc to try and it's still playing flat.
Now for my ignorance. Which key is i? If you have all fingers off on the lower register, then that's it. :blush:
Yeah I know, Ive been playing long enough but I just can't seem to make myself remember which note is which..... sorry
I've noticed that there is a screw to adjust the amount that this key lifts, would that alter the tone of just that key or not?
 
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Chris98

Senior Member
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1,093
I've been playing the bari for a couple of weeks now and I've noticed that it's playing a little flat on one note only. At first I thought it may have been caused by the stock mouthpiece, but I've just received a couple of decent mpc to try and it's still playing flat.
Now for my ignorance. Which key is i? If you have all fingers off on the lower register, then that's it. :blush:
Yeah I know, Ive been playing long enough but I just can't seem to make myself remember which note is which..... sorry
I've noticed that there is a screw to adjust the amount that this key lifts, would that alter the tone of just that key or not?

When you say 'key' do you mean note? All fingers of the left hand except the little finger and right hand fingers would be G. If the little finger on the left had is also pressing the top key of the cluster then it would be G#.

I think!

Chris
 

rhysonsax

Well-Known Member
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4,470
Hi Taz,

Not quite sure on the question, but here's my answer anyway.

Any saxophone is designed and built on compromises and notes will be more or less out of tune, obvioulsy affected by the player, the mouthpiece type, the mouthpiece position and the instrument set-up. How much is "a little flat" (e.g. 10 cents, 30 cents) ?

All fingers off and no octave key is C# on the saxophone. C# on baritone is concert E.

If it is sounding flat, but the C# up the octave is in tune, then any changes you make are going to result in a bit of a compromise as they will raise the pitch of both C#s. I think that if you reduce the height that the open key lifts, it will make the C# play slightly flatter (the tonehole acts as though it were slightly further down the tube). A point is reached when the pad doesn't open enough and the note is too muffled. So I think you want to raise the height that the key lifts. But go slowly....

Changing this key height won't affect any other notes, as it only comes into play on the C# when it is open.

Hope that helps

Rhys
 

Taz

Busking Oracle
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3,664
Thanks for that Rhys, I think you understood my question quite well (I'm cr@p at explaining things) I would say it's 10 cents flat, so not a lot but my ears a very sensitive to tone so I hear it clearly! So you say raise the key cup a very small amount. I understand what your saying about the upper C so I'll go carefully.
Thanks.
I had a play with the mouthpieces and was surprised by the dramatic difference between the two. I love the Lawton, my got that's a beast. I'm finding it a little easy to screech, but it's got real presence. I love it. It's really suited to the outlandish ways of Dick Parry so will really fit in with this gig I'm doing. The Berg is a totally different animal, it's so smooth.
I'm really hoping that the PPT will be a cross between the two of them.
Thanks again for the loan.
 
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Pete Thomas

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All fingers off and no octave key is C# on the saxophone. C# on baritone is concert E.

Yes, that's a common flat note for all (or most) of us on all (or most) saxophones.
It can be nudged a bit by a bit of tweaking by a good tech, but as Rhys says it's a compromise and by tweaking the key heights, something else might go out of whack.

My solution if you can't "lip it up" is to push the mouthpiece on just a tad, and relax on the other notes.

Edit:

OTOH, your PPT may solve the issue ;) Or not...
 

Taz

Busking Oracle
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3,664
Yes, that's a common flat note for all (or most) of us on all (or most) saxophones.
It can be nudged a bit by a bit of tweaking by a good tech, but as Rhys says it's a compromise and by tweaking the key heights, something else might go out of whack.

My solution if you can't "lip it up" is to push the mouthpiece on just a tad, and relax on the other notes.

Edit:

OTOH, your PPT may solve the issue ;) Or not...

;} Thanks for that Pete, I'm sure it will. In that case I'll probably leave it well alone.
 

rhysonsax

Well-Known Member
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4,470
I had a play with the mouthpieces and was surprised by the dramatic difference between the two. I love the Lawton, my got that's a beast. I'm finding it a little easy to screech, but it's got real presence. I love it. It's really suited to the outlandish ways of Dick Parry so will really fit in with this gig I'm doing. The Berg is a totally different animal, it's so smooth.
I'm really hoping that the PPT will be a cross between the two of them.
Thanks again for the loan.

The Lawton is a bit too closed for me at 5 Star (0.100") which may be a reason for screeches. I usually play on bari mouthpieces that are about 0.120".

The Larsen is a /2 chamber which they would describe as "round" (3 is "mellow", 1 is "bright" and 0 is "brilliant"). If you slap on a Rico Plasticover you get plenty of bark with this Larsen but a nice full-bodied sound as well. [Is that enough to get me into Pseuds' Corner or at least into a wine-tasting magazine ?].

I find the PPT to be pretty flexible, with real edge to it when pushed and when using Plasticovers. I think you will like it.

Rhys
 

Taz

Busking Oracle
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3,664
I was messing around with Shine on you crazy diamond this afternoon using the Lawton and absolutly loved the ability to really make it wail! In fact, it turned into something really bluesy/rocky! I loved it, not so sure that Dark Side Of the Wall would apreciate it too much though!
 

Chris98

Senior Member
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1,093
I was messing around with Shine on you crazy diamond this afternoon using the Lawton and absolutly loved the ability to really make it wail! In fact, it turned into something really bluesy/rocky! I loved it, not so sure that Dark Side Of the Wall would apreciate it too much though!

What, no video! Come on Taz, even if it's still a bit rough around the edges, I need to see and hear this, I love Pink Floyd.

By the way do you need backing tracks? If so check out: http://www.gilmourish.com/?page_id=64

Best wishes,

Chris
 

Taz

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Hey thanks for that link Chris. It makes listening to and learning the sax part so much easier. I'll see about the video, I mean it really is rough at the moment!
 

gladsaxisme

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Sorry Taz but I think Chris 98 is right,if you have all the fingers on you right hand off (that's the lower hand on the sax)and all three fingers on the left hand on(that's the upper hand on the sax) then the note you are having problems with is G and I believe this is a key that can cause problems due to adjustment.If you have no fingers on the sax at all like everybody says that is C# and is what I call the sax's own natural note because you are just blowing into the sax and not touching anything so how could you possibly have adjustment on that? The only thing that can affect this note is the octave mechanism.( sorry if I'm boring everybody)...john
 

kevgermany

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John, C# is a very small tonehole, and like Pete said seems to be very sensitive to how much the key opens. I've a Buescher 20A here at the moment with exactly that problem, and quite a few others are the same. No reason to think the Bari is different.

It's also one of the first toneholes on the tube. So can't be thought of as the natural tube pitch - that would be with everything closed (bottom Bb, or A on some saxes).
 

Chris98

Senior Member
Messages
1,093
Hi John,

I got the wrong end of the stick and made an assumption, when I make assumptions I'm usually wrong! I had thought when Taz described no fingers on the lower octave he meant the right hand fingers. But Taz was describing no fingers at all, neither left or right hand, so that would be a C#! And a glorious note it is too, rather underrated these days, but there is a growing appreciation for it and I shouldn't think it will be long before... what am I rambling on about?

Taz, rough's good, you could document your progress :w00t:

Best wishes,

Chris
 

johnboy

Senior Member
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1,179
Hi Taz,
Regarding "The Dark Side of the Wall", I have a problem here with the "Dark Side of the Ceiling". They are at it (very loudly)at 0.200 Hrs. most nights, and then sit arround talking about it.
So I decided to put a CD on, volume right up, and played along with it for an hour, full blast (with no attempt to play in tune ( don't you dare)).
This is the honest truth. He has now got a gun, and is firing it off into the distance while, shouting something in Spanish.

I admit defeat. - MOOVING SOON!!!!
 
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Nick Wyver

noisy
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Wot Pete said upthread. No fingers C# is often flat. Coupled with the fact that the D above it usually sharp makes D to C# one of the dodgiest moves in sax playing - especially in ballads and the like. If you're descending to the D then you can miss the sharpness - until you hit the C#. Flat, thin and weedy - urgh!
 

gladsaxisme

Try Hard Die Hard
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Hi John,

I got the wrong end of the stick and made an assumption, when I make assumptions I'm usually wrong! I had thought when Taz described no fingers on the lower octave he meant the right hand fingers. But Taz was describing no fingers at all, neither left or right hand, so that would be a C#! And a glorious note it is too, rather underrated these days, but there is a growing appreciation for it and I shouldn't think it will be long before... what am I rambling on about?

Taz, rough's good, you could document your progress :w00t:

Best wishes,

Chris

OK I admit my mistake it just sounded more like you were thinking to me and your quite right about it being a glorious note I find it's used a lot in most of the tunes I'm playing at the moment and as far as the tone hole thing goes yes I agree it could be adjusted sorry I'll just pop off and flail myself....AAAAAAAARGGGGGHHHHH
 

saxnik

Member
Messages
381
My Mauriat low A Bari is slightly flat on C#, though it depends which key you're playing in whether it's noticeable or not! See threads ad nauseum I imagine about tempered scales etc.

I get around the problem by fingering 'long' C# (i.e. same fingering as low C#) for longer notes in the upper octave in these keys. Faster notes go by too quickly to notice it!

Nick
 
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