Great Players The evolution of the saxophone sound

[Pete Effamy]

So not unlike the matched vibrato of the Miller sound. I don't subscribe to denigrating words such as corny, schmaltzy etc. In fact, this type of music can be hard to play for many.

Here's the Miller sound that we all know reaching as far back as the '30's.

View: https://youtu.be/rjq1aTLjrOE

 

[6441]

Every time I see one of these, I think of James Stewart saying "I hear a different sound, Helen" to June Allyson in the movie

The Glenn Miller Story (1954) ⭐ 7.3 | Biography, Drama, Music

1h 55m | Approved

www.imdb.com

 

[Pete Effamy]

Personally I've always found the speed of the Miller vibrato difficult. Miller is difficult as it's like classical music - it's not the done thing to put your own stamp on it.

 

[jbtsax]

So not unlike the matched vibrato of the Miller sound. I don't subscribe to denigrating words such as corny, schmaltzy etc. In fact, this type of music can be hard to play for many.

I suspect that for some younger folks it can be hard to listen to as well. 😉 Both terms I used mean "overly sentimental" which is an accurate description of much of the popular music of that generation.

Speaking of Glenn Miller. Years ago I played alto in a "Glen Miller" band at a university that was part of a week long fundraising program that included a dinner dance and entertainment. They got a drama student who knew nothing about music to dress up and play the part of Glenn Miller directing the band. He apparently took his role seriously and in one rehearsal stopped the band and told the saxophone section to put more "wobblys" in the sound. The head of the music department and my mentor known for his dry wit sitting next to me in the section turned to me and said, "I remember when they used to call that vibrato". 🙂

 

[6441]

Thinking about this, it occurs to me that today, you can create Grammy-winning music or great music (not the same thing) in any genre in your bedroom or basement, alone or with people anywhere on the planet. Back then, it required rounding up 10 or more people, a studio, charts, arrangement, and all the skills to create these. It is corny sounding, regardless of how good it is, but it's also an amazing achievement to have pulled this together!

 

[Wonko]

I’ve said it before... find me a recording of a pro sax player in any style/genre that doesn’t use vibrato at all..

I'll give it a try.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbLYZ8FZzrU

I don't think there is a vibrato in there.
At around 2 minutes there is a sax solo where he uses some strange effects (no idea what one would call it), but I don't think that you can call that vibrato .... I certainly wouldn't.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I'll give it a try.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbLYZ8FZzrU

I don't think there is a vibrato in there.
At around 2 minutes there is a sax solo where he uses some strange effects (no idea what one would call it), but I don't think that you can call that vibrato .... I certainly wouldn't.

Listened to about 8 seconds - vib on each long note sir!

 

[Riversider]

Miles Davis remembered being told to play without vibrato, "because you'll start shaking soon enough".

 

[jourard]

Vibrato, like humor, ages badly. I have been listening closely to several Cannonball Adderley albums of the mid Fifties...Cannonball With Strings, Julian "Cannonball" Adderley, and In the Land of Hi Fi. His playing is astonishing, out Birding Bird, with touches of Benny Carter and Johnny Hodges. But the vibrato is very forward and really sticks out to contemporary ears. It's also very hard to produce. The fast vibrato of the Rudy Weidoft era was also popular with female singers during the twenties. In later years Adderley slowed it way down.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FJEYstdUR4

 

[jbtsax]

Thank you for reviving this thread and adding the style of Cannonball to the mix. In my opinion when playing ballads Cannonball often used more of a "classical vibrato" in the sense that the vibrato started at the beginning of the note and was sustained throughout---especially on the longer notes. A lot of jazz saxophonists use a style closer to what vocalists use on ballads where the note starts without vibrato and then it is gradually added at the end.

I remember spending hours listening to Marshall Royal playing Lonely Street when I played lead alto in my university jazz ensemble to try to achieve his sound---vibrato and all. I didn't realize at the time how much he was influenced by Johnny Hodges.

 

[jourard]

In videos of Hodges playing it looks like he's sipping tea, the way he repeatedly removes the mouthpiece from his mouth during a song. Never seen anyone play in that way. Royal does approach the pitch in the way Hodges does, bending up to it or down to it so smoothly.

 

[GCinCT]

Thank you for reviving this thread and adding the style of Cannonball to the mix. In my opinion when playing ballads Cannonball often used more of a "classical vibrato" in the sense that the vibrato started at the beginning of the note and was sustained throughout---especially on the longer notes. A lot of jazz saxophonists use a style closer to what vocalists use on ballads where the note starts without vibrato and then it is gradually added at the end.

I remember spending hours listening to Marshall Royal playing Lonely Street when I played lead alto in my university jazz ensemble to try to achieve his sound---vibrato and all. I didn't realize at the time how much he was influenced by Johnny Hodges.

I’ve spent some time playing along to this too. I got the book with the Marshall Royal parts in your recommendation.

 

[Dave Dunn]

That was an interesting read! As someone who has been singing in bands for 35 years, my take on vibrato is that it's a useful tool when you either can't quite hit the note (Marc Bolan is a great example of that), or can't hold it cleanly for the desired length of time as it stops the "sagging" at the end as you start to lose wind.
I really don't have an opinion on it re saxophone, but I would assume it has much the same benefits, in regards to holding a long note, and thus became part of the saxophone sound.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Vibrato, like humor, ages badly. I have been listening closely to several Cannonball Adderley albums of the mid Fifties...Cannonball With Strings, Julian "Cannonball" Adderley, and In the Land of Hi Fi. His playing is astonishing, out Birding Bird, with touches of Benny Carter and Johnny Hodges. But the vibrato is very forward and really sticks out to contemporary ears. It's also very hard to produce. The fast vibrato of the Rudy Weidoft era was also popular with female singers during the twenties. In later years Adderley slowed it way down.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FJEYstdUR4

I don't think that it's as simple as that. Everette Harp uses a pretty fast vibrato, and often it's throughout the note too.

View: https://youtu.be/dgzsHTviG90

 

[jourard]

I don't think that it's as simple as that. Everette Harp uses a pretty fast vibrato, and often it's throughout the note too.

View: https://youtu.be/dgzsHTviG90

It is not that simple, true. This arrangement is from a different era, rhythmically vertical, a lot of stop and start, the vibrato works to smooth out the overall arrangement somewhat. Everette also adds the vibrato at the end of notes and phrases. That edgy Sanborn tone needs something to make it warmer and vibrato certainly does that.

 

[eb424]

any vibrato here

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgQQ7k30Ti4


there has got to be room surely for all music.... The trumpets fantastic and the duel with the drummer pure wow..but there again so is rahsaan roland kirks the entertainer played two different styles on the album.. wish i could play it 1 style... guess that's the beauty of music... its how any of it makes you feel...and what it inspires you to do..

 

[Pete Effamy]

any vibrato here

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgQQ7k30Ti4


there has got to be room surely for all music.... The trumpets fantastic and the duel with the drummer pure wow..but there again so is rahsaan roland kirks the entertainer played two different styles on the album.. wish i could play it 1 style... guess that's the beauty of music... its how any of it makes you feel...and what it inspires you to do..

I assume that you’re kidding about being no vib?

 

[eb424]

all vib huh I thought there was a bit on reflection... as a newbie it seems as though the saxophone sometimes belongs in a bygone era of music... Cant help but wonder if in a hundred years from now it will still be the same as it is now re the greats... is the sax fashionable is that of topic with the evolution....

 

[Pete Effamy]

all vib huh I thought there was a bit on reflection... as a newbie it seems as though the saxophone sometimes belongs in a bygone era of music... Cant help but wonder if in a hundred years from now it will still be the same as it is now re the greats... is the sax fashionable is that of topic with the evolution....

It’s the long notes that get the vibrato. If faster notes had continuous vibrato it would sound odd. When Candy uses vibrato it’s quite evident, she doesn’t shy away from it.

 

[turf3]

Well, classical flutists and violinists have been using vibrato for centuries.

In many African languages (I am told) pitch conveys meaning so timbre is often used to convey emphasis. This carries over from speaking to singing.

When Africans came in contact with European musical instruments and traditions, the use of vibrato in the European tradition was therefore similar and familiar to their experience in singing and speaking; early mentions of slave musicians in America often mention their use of vibrato and the tonal quality of their playing as well as their rhythmic usages. The creators of jazz were also in that tradition; they generally had extensive experience with European musical traditions through brass bands, piano music, etc., and so vibrato was naturally carried over into jazz.

The most characteristic aspect of jazz vibrato usage is what's called the "terminal vibrato" where a note starts straight and vibrato is applied after the start of the note, often increasing in width (and sometimes in speed) as the note persists. The application of the vibrato can create an effect much like a second breath accent thus giving a sforzando effect. In jazz playing you don't just play a note and let it lie there, you do something with a long note.

A tradition in jazz (though, sadly, disappearing) that does not exist in classical music is the concept of each musician having his "own sound". In the jazz tradition this is probably the most important aspect of musical development, more important than technique, or theory, or sightreading, or knowing hundreds of tunes. No one wants to be told "you just sound like a copy of XYZ." There are many things that go into a musician's "own sound" and his individual use of vibrato is one of those - an important one. I once was recognized from across a football stadium when warming up by sound alone.