Great Players The evolution of the saxophone sound

[jbtsax]

I find vibrato nothing special as a listener.

Really?

 

[ellinas]

The flavour and placement of vibrato in phrases also the ability to understand where to put it and where to avoid it ..... where to start it and how to finish it ....it's (Varying?) speed.... for me ... separates good players from amateurs....
It's a vital tone element. When used right.

And it gives identity to your sound.

Same goes with guitars, violins, hammond organs ....
Most artificial sounds like electric pianos or synths use vibrato/tremolo effects to create a special feeling...

Hammond organs has special "speakers" with rotating speakers called leslies and the leslie speed is used for excitement ....

My examples of great vibrato ...

Classical - Theodore Kerkezos .... I find this player exceptional.

Jazz - Johny Hodges ... Man this song .. almost makes me cry from excitement!
This is a great song to transcribe ... it's lines are pure beauty .... the articulation speaks .... the vibrato sings... I think I need to drink some wine....

 

[Pete Effamy]

I’ve said it before... find me a recording of a pro sax player in any style/genre that doesn’t use vibrato at all..

 

[Wonko]

Really?

Yes, really.
I listened to the examples you gave, and some others here. And for me the vibrato adds no extra value at all, I might even say that I would prefer it without the vibrato.

But of course, everybody has his or her own preferences, if you like vibrato, that's fine by me. Just wanted to say that it's nothing special to me, perhaps even a distraction more than anything.

 

[Targa]

I’ve said it before... find me a recording of a pro sax player in any style/genre that doesn’t use vibrato at all..

Boots Randolph - Yakety Sax - Bing video

(Maybe he does, my hearing is somewhat restricted.)

 

[Pete Effamy]

Boots Randolph - Yakety Sax - Bing video

(Maybe he does, my hearing is somewhat restricted.)

Full marks for trying. When he actually plays a note long enough, and not scooped, he does. First example at about 49".

 

[Pete Effamy]

Yes, really.
I listened to the examples you gave, and some others here. And for me the vibrato adds no extra value at all, I might even say that I would prefer it without the vibrato.

But of course, everybody has his or her own preferences, if you like vibrato, that's fine by me. Just wanted to say that it's nothing special to me, perhaps even a distraction more than anything.

Well, if you take away the vibrato from these performances and others then they would be very dull. Stringed instruments would be much smaller in sound too.

German clarinettist Karl Leister played without vibrato, but the clarinet is rich in overtones and this approach is valid, and beautiful still - though one wonders whether it is apt for all works ie Copland Concerto is hard to think of with no vibrato anywhere at all.

I've not heard a saxophone played in such a way though. The French Horn can be, particularly in the European orchestras, but not always in the US. Most instruments are "vibrato instruments".

Perhaps the fact that vibrato is part of the sound rather than an add-on with many instruments means that you don't consider it special, as you're not distinguishing it in the performance. If it were not present though, I'm sure it would be rather more obvious.

 

[6441]

Interesting question I never asked myself. I am guessing that vibrato adds what I would call warmth and personality. It also offers some escape from bad intonation on wind and stringed instruments. It's another element that varies between styles and performers, allowing it to be featured often on forum discussions. The official modern jazz edict I've read and heard (from Eric Marienthal, for one) is that most of the time, you only want it at the very end of the note. The mechanical vibrato of the YDS-150 and sounds on the VL70 module, when vibrato is allowed have no warmth and sound mechanical. That's why I would have preferred they leave them as optional.

 

[Pete Effamy]

most of the time, you only want it at the very end of the note

I'd mostly agree with this, and it is the way that vibrato has mostly been used on the saxophone. But some players use it for far more of the note (as their main sound, not occasionally) and it works just as well.

With Everette Harp for instance, you can hear that his vibrato is almost always constant. It's quite pronounced too. I have a feeling - but haven't checked - that his tenor playing might be different. Interesting to see if his approach is different on each horn. He's a terrific soprano player too.

View: https://youtu.be/dgzsHTviG90

 

[6441]

vibrato is almost always constant

Part of his personality. Part of his sound.

 

[Chris J]

As this thread is currently turned to vibrato, here is an interesting 30 radio programme / podcast that discusses it. Mainly in relation to singing, but just as relevant to other instruments.

BBC Radio 3 - The Listening Service, How to Sing Classical - Vibrato!

Good vibrations or horrible wobbling? Why do singers use vibrato?

www.bbc.co.uk

Chris

 

[Pete Effamy]

Part of his personality. Part of his sound.

Yes. So interesting though. Before I heard him play I’d never have contemplated playing like that in a pop or jazz style.

 

[Pete Effamy]

As this thread is currently turned to vibrato, here is an interesting 30 radio programme / podcast that discusses it. Mainly in relation to singing, but just as relevant to other instruments.

BBC Radio 3 - The Listening Service, How to Sing Classical - Vibrato!

Good vibrations or horrible wobbling? Why do singers use vibrato?

www.bbc.co.uk

Chris

I could only listen to about half of this programme. Felt like it belonged on ClassicFM rather than BBC Radio 3. Up to the point that I baled out it had not been mentioned that an opera singer wouldn't have enough muscle without vibrato to go toe to toe with a full orchestra. The debate really is a question - that they do touch on, but in a non-serious way - of how wide the oscillation is. Whether this should change depending upon the range of the note - higher notes with the "same" amount of vibrato will sound more wild.

The Early Music "no vibrato" debate is incorrect. It uses vibrato but far less often and is more subtle when it used. Emma Kirkby used vibrato. Some choir boys also use vibrato. Castratos, Falsettists, Counter-tenors all use vibrato.

 

[jbtsax]

This has been great discussion. When introducing the topic I'll admit I had in mind the change in the "timbre" of the tone of the saxophone from warm and mellow to bright and edgy, but I now realize that the transformation in the style of vibrato is an integral part of the discussion on the "evolution" of the saxophone sound.

Not only has the style of vibrato changed as the "classical saxophone" concept of sound has broadened to include influences beyond the "French School", but the saxophone vibrato in jazz has undergone an even more dramatic change from about the 1920's to today. Early recordings give evidence that the early jazz players used a vibrato that was considerably wider, and in some cases faster and more constant that players today. Jazz players generally moved toward a vibrato added toward the end of long tones that was not as fast or as wide as their predecessors. In some respects the fast, almost constant vibrato characteristic of the style of "smooth jazz" players today has come full circle.

Larry Teal in"The Art of Saxophone Playing" includes an entire chapter on vibrato in which he states:

The saxophone is essentially a lyric instrument, whose tone and use is associated with the human voice. Inasmuch as vibrato is accepted as a natural embellishment for the voice, it is logical that the saxophone be treated likewise. The problem, then, is not to attempt to justify the use of vibrato, but to achieve a good vibrato that can be used in the very best of musical taste.

Dr. Carl Seashore defines "good vibrato" as a pulsation of pitch, usually accompanied by synchronous pulsations of loudness and timbre, of such extent and rate as to give a pleasing flexibility, tenderness, and richness to the tone.

 

[6441]

Mentons of Larry Teal book are drinking game material!

 

[Pete Effamy]

This has been great discussion. When introducing the topic I'll admit I had in mind the change in the "timbre" of the tone of the saxophone from warm and mellow to bright and edgy, but I now realize that the transformation in the style of vibrato is an integral part of the discussion on the "evolution" of the saxophone sound.

Not only has the style of vibrato changed as the "classical saxophone" concept of sound has broadened to include influences beyond the "French School", but the saxophone vibrato in jazz has undergone an even more dramatic change from about the 1920's to today. Early recordings give evidence that the early jazz players used a vibrato that was considerably wider, and in some cases faster and more constant that players today. Jazz players generally moved toward a vibrato added toward the end of long tones that was not as fast or as wide as their predecessors. In some respects the fast, almost constant vibrato characteristic of the style of "smooth jazz" players today has come full circle.

Larry Teal in"The Art of Saxophone Playing" includes an entire chapter on vibrato in which he states:

The good Doctor...

Dr. Carl Seashore defines "good vibrato" as a pulsation of pitch, usually accompanied by synchronous pulsations of loudness and timbre, of such extent and rate as to give a pleasing flexibility, tenderness, and richness to the tone.

Pulsation - yes of course.
Loudness - ok, if talking of diaphragm vibrato - though the general perception ain't necessarily so.
Pulsations of timbre - ??

 

[mizmar]

world music fusion are some of the extremes.

Not wanting to add another deflection to the topic; but blues and jazz where born out of "world music fusion"...

 

[6441]

Regarding vibrato, I happened to listen to this because of a mention of the song by @rhysonsax and note that I didn't every notice Stan played with so much vibrato, some on almost every note. I checked other versions, including live and he always played it this way. I guess I've never ac tually listened to his playing that much. I know he's a giant, but it's not my era.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxE9HT4rd5M

 

[Pete Effamy]

Regarding vibrato, I happened to listen to this because of a mention of the song by @rhysonsax and note that I didn't every notice Stan played with so much vibrato, some on almost every note. I checked other versions, including live and he always played it this way. I guess I've never ac tually listened to his playing that much. I know he's a giant, but it's not my era.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxE9HT4rd5M

Interesting that Getz was 7 years younger than Charlie Parker, a year younger than Coltrane and 7 years older than Turrentine.

Whenever I hear Getz I wonder why we ever wanted to play differently. I think that of all the guys that I revere though.

 

[jbtsax]

The sound of the Billy Vaughn orchestra was popular in the late 50's and 60's. I remember as a younger student playing along with many of his recordings. The saxophone section vibrato was for the most part even and consistent throughout the notes, not unlike the vibrato classical players use. Perhaps this is where my affinity for sappy, schmaltzy music came from. 😉