Teaching Student choosing the teacher’s method

[eb424]

Nobody has mentioned anything being the correct method. I would not use that word in regard to teaching/learning of anything except classical music I suppose.

The word correct implies objectivity and that would mean there is some authoritative source that says what is correct.

Surely by the very definition of saying my way of playing is wrong, longwinded, there has to be a right way..the way that teachers teach..Music, theory, playing from scores or memory. You indicate as much below. This is the accepted method of learning the one that is taught, not to be argumentative or pedantic. Are agencies such as ABRSM, and music teaching bodies not authoriative, the structure of the grades for example is an accepted route..Every teacher I have had has used the same format.. surely there must be a tool to measure competence the grades fullfil this role..Also are there not entry requirements to music schools where I would assume most teachers come from..

"You've mentioned before you do this and plenty of people have said it's a bad thing to do instead of learning to read music. People think of it as a short cut, but actually IMO it's a very long cut. If you have been doing it for years then that proves the point, because learning to read music competently enough to read a basic lead sheet can be achieved in a few weeks".


"You could say methods is the same as agenda, basically meaning what you do in the lesson".


For me rightly or wrongly agenda is the goal and method is the tools used to reach the goal for me the accepted method of learning the sax or any instrument is learning to read music underpinned by theory. As the thread is regarding "teaching" or learning I am discussing teaching methods..Otherwise you tell me off for going of topic ;-)..

For about 20 years of my career I wasa pop and rock session musician. It was extremely rare to turn up to a recording session and have to read any music.
ok but how did you learn the song prior to the recording session?? Reading music?...you made a great career out of being a great saxophonist Pete..To make a career out of it surely you had to follow a route and learn everything that you can? This is I guess what I mean by accepted pathway although I didn't term it as such..( therefore I have left the quotation marks off..lol)

"I'm not sure what you mean by capacity, time and cost. To learn an instrument like saxophone needs time and cost whatever"

These were just some reasons that excluded people from learning, again we are in the context of teaching. Of course there are costs involved, but buying a sax could literally be the only one ( ok lig, mouthpiece, reeds aside getting gas now) but unless you are going to be a pro musician are on going lessons a viable justifiable expence for a late developer or someone who wants to play for fun? Has a young family and other commitments?

Ok most people are of the same ilk, I cant do x so I cant achieve y...exchange x for read music and y for play a musical instrument..I was like that for years although I always remembered FACE and EGBDF from school.. Then I found blowout sax and off I went..I didn't have to read music to enjoy playing...I don't feel this is promoted enough..there is another way BUT without reading you are dependent on someone else (so ironically you do have to read ;-) ) However me being me wanted to learn theory as it promoted independence...I know many on here will be laughing now but I am fortunate enough to be able to take what I need from a score my mate still uses a note chart 6 years FF(lip)S..I have tried to move on within my financial limitations to learn as much as I can re theory ( cue laughter now)..

This is what I mean by exclusion, to join a group / band you need to read music, play to grade 3 etc, there is another way; a way that could include all those who don't think they can achieve musical fulfillment because they don't read music. Likening music to philosophy people have a set idea on an issue, someone comes along and agrees with most of the theory but disgrees on a certain point, a new school is built, Humanism from psycho dynamism, the world grows..I don't feel as tho the musical teaching world embraces and promotes as @thomsax says ' Alternatives' at all and this is why I feel it is "exclusive".

If more social events happened following a pattern of playing written notes rather than dots ( I know someone would have to read to translate Irony again) to backing tracks..I genuinelly believe more people would enter the wonderful world of the sax...However they would all have to be not singing from the same hymn sheet..

sorry for the long post I know you struggle with them.......

 

[Pete Thomas]

there has to be a right way..the way that teachers teach..

As in my example re: Joe Allard vs Larry Teal embouchure, many teachers disagree about method

Also are there not entry requirements to music schools where I would assume most teachers come from..

Yes they tend to need qualifications now. Not when I went. Apart from, O levels I had no other qualifications.

Although I could read music when I went music college, I didn't know the saxophone wasa transposing instrument, so although in my sight reading part of the entrance exam I played all the wrong notes, I played the right tune 🙂

For me rightly or wrongly agenda is the goal and method is the tools used to reach the goal

Ah, shows how words can be misleading. I've never heard the use of the word agenda to mean goal, only heard it in teaching/learning as in "what's on the agenda today?" or in this case your "agenda" might be what you want to do in a specific lesson.

ok but how did you learn the song prior to the recording session?? Reading music?

No, we learned it on the session. A lot of pop and rock sessions were like that. No reading music part from maybe a few notes I might jot down while listening through to the track as a sort of aide memoire.

...you made a great career out of being a great saxophonist Pete..To make a career out of it surely you had to follow a route and learn everything that you can? This is I guess what I mean by accepted pathway although I didn't term it as such..( therefore I have left the quotation marks off..lol)

Yes I learnt everything I could including learning to read music in the wrong key. But until music college I was self taught.

This is what I mean by exclusion, to join a group / band you need to read music, play to grade 3 etc, there is another way;

I played in quite a few bands before I could read music. After learning to read music I played in many bands where I didn't read music.

So although I believe it's good idea to read music and very useful, I would still not call it the "correct" way to learn unless reading music is a requirement for whatever it is you are going to do.

Something that leads to the same end, e.g. being able to play tunes, is improving your era so that you can easily play what you hear and learn a tune without music. In many cases its more important and useful than reading.

 

[lydian]

How exactly does that work? I realise that there's coda but even with this "Piano Man" score is 12 pages..People seem quick enough to slate the method but dont seem to understand that you have to be able to read music notation to do it..I also choose to transpose rather than let "music notes" do it as it's more practice at reading.

TBF notes are only words..if you can break down the pronunciation youd have a rough idea. Just for fun the first line is

" It's nine o'clock on a Saturday" ..I'd assume

It's nine O' clock
Crotchet quaver crotchet quavercrotchet

On a Saturday
Crothet quaver triplet

Just a bit of fun..

It’s called a lead sheet. Here’s Piano Man on a single page. There is no reason to attempt to read from a full score. I bet all your tunes could fit on one page. (This is reposted from sheetmusicplus preview page):

Link (tap image to preview)

Piano Man by Billy Joel - Piano, C Instrument - Late Intermediate Digital Sheet Music | Sheet Music Plus

Shop and Buy Piano Man sheet music. C Instrument sheet music book by Billy Joel: John Fries at Sheet Music Plus. (A0.500242).

www.sheetmusicplus.com

 

[thomsax]

It doesn't matter what kind of of genres you are teaching/learning I think .....
.... early repeat is good. The same day or next day. To see a teacher once a week for an hour is not efficient.
.... vary of methods. We responds different on different methods.
.... the teacher and student should connect. To start the first lesson with telling how important to know and play in all 12 keys is often not what a student want to hear.
.... teach more to solve than just to play what is written on the paper. The lessons should turn you on, not turn you off. My first bluesjam was great. The older sax player lead me and told me what to play just before we started to play. We played "Hoochie Coochie Man" in a A. Jjams are good lessons. *

 

[Pete Thomas]

To start the first lesson with telling how important to know and play in all 12 keys is often not what a student want to hear.

Are you saying it's a good thing or a bad thing?

Some students respond well to hearing the hard truth, others do not.

One of the most important teaching skills is to have quickly work out what sort of approach works best psychologically for each specific student.

I once told a student "that was awful, you didn't practice what I asked you to." So that lesson stopped after 5 minutes, I told her to not come back until she could play the intro of "In the Mood' without sheet music which was the assigned practice. I didn't charge her of course. She came back three days later and had nailed it.

But some students I couldn't/wouldn't do that with - they would just bust into tears and give up.

 

[Digger2054]

Some students respond well to hearing the hard truth, others do not.

I am one of those, I've spend a fortnight slaving over one piece, and in the next lesson didn't get past the 2nd bar, before being told how rubbish I was.

Some would say harsh, but he was correct. We spent the lesson going over it, and learning how to practice effectively. My last lesson was again more learning techniques to maximise my practise time.

In my opinion that's why I am having lessons for, I could watch YouTube, and have a go myself, and say that'll do, but I am continually being pushed and challenged.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Learning how to learn is a useful life skill.

 

[skeller047]

If I understand this discussion correctly, @eb424 wants to learn 10 more songs in time for a performance. Here’s how I would do it:

Pick one song, put the music on infinite repeat, and play along with it until I could match it. Maybe use one of those slow down programs, that allow you to isolate difficult parts. In other words, live with the tune. Next day, do it again. And the next. Don’t write it down. After I got that one, add another. But still play the first one at least once thru every day. Rinse and repeat until I’ve got the 20 down.

20 tunes will last an hour or two, played one after the other. A nice set. Why worry about a convoluted, non standard way to notate something? Just learn the blasted song.

Writing the music down, especially in a very non-standard format, takes time. I think that time would be better spent in learning to play the song. I only write stuff down if I need to show it to other musicians. And I say that as a person who played professionally for many years - I certainly know how to write and read music on paper. But performing as a soloist, I want stuff memorized and internalized.

 

[Nick Wyver]

If I understand this discussion correctly, @eb424 wants to learn 10 more songs in time for a performance. Here’s how I would do it:

Pick one song, put the music on infinite repeat, and play along with it until I could match it. Maybe use one of those slow down programs, that allow you to isolate difficult parts. In other words, live with the tune. Next day, do it again. And the next. Don’t write it down. After I got that one, add another. But still play the first one at least once thru every day. Rinse and repeat until I’ve got the 20 down.

20 tunes will last an hour or two, played one after the other. A nice set. Why worry about a convoluted, non standard way to notate something? Just learn the blasted song.

Writing the music down, especially in a very non-standard format, takes time. I think that time would be better spent in learning to play the song. I only write stuff down if I need to show it to other musicians. And I say that as a person who played professionally for many years - I certainly know how to write and read music on paper. But performing as a soloist, I want stuff memorized and internalized.

It’s nice that it works for you. It doesn’t for everyone. I’ve tried this on a number of occasions over the last 50 years. If I stop playing the 20 or so tunes for a few weeks after I’ve "got them down" they’ve gone. The last thing I want to do is play the same tunes for the rest of my life so I gave up the futile task of memorising stuff and enjoyed playing instead. If I have to play the correct notes for a particular gig then written dots serve me very well.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Learning how to learn is a useful life skill.

This was always one of my goals when I did some teaching. If I could make myself redundant that was a big achievement.

 

[Pete Thomas]

If I understand this discussion correctly, @eb424 wants to learn 10 more songs in time for a performance.

Well that was one bit of the thread when it kind of went off in that direction as an example .

But the main discussion is broadly about the student choosing what the teacher teaches so it is much wider than that, about teaching methods in general.

 

[Targa]

It’s nice that it works for you. It doesn’t for everyone. I’ve tried this on a number of occasions over the last 50 years. If I stop playing the 20 or so tunes for a few weeks after I’ve "got them down" they’ve gone. The last thing I want to do is play the same tunes for the rest of my life so I gave up the futile task of memorising stuff and enjoyed playing instead. If I have to play the correct notes for a particular gig then written dots serve me very well.

That was my experience as well except for 15 years not '50' and don't do gigs.

 

[Bisaxual]

One of the most important teaching skills is to have quickly work out what sort of approach works best psychologically for each specific student.

Absolutely! Patience, motivational ability, technical skill, warm heart — they are all in distant second places to this primary skill. Yet few teachers — especially those who are available to take on new students — possess such skill.

 

[eb424]

Reminds me of a workshop with a conservatorium harmony teacher 30 years ago. He asked me for my first thought on Blues. Beer wasn't the good answer and he never made eye contact with me again.

Such teachers should come with a ma

It’s called a lead sheet. Here’s Piano Man on a single page. There is no reason to attempt to read from a full score. I bet all you tunes could fit one on page. (This is reposted from sheetmusicplus preview page):

Link (tap image to preview)

Piano Man by Billy Joel - Piano, C Instrument - Late Intermediate Digital Sheet Music | Sheet Music Plus

Shop and Buy Piano Man sheet music. C Instrument sheet music book by Billy Joel: John Fries at Sheet Music Plus. (A0.500242).

www.sheetmusicplus.com

It’s called a lead sheet. Here’s Piano Man on a single page. There is no reason to attempt to read from a full score. I bet all your tunes could fit on one page. (This is reposted from sheetmusicplus preview page):

Link (tap image to preview)

Piano Man by Billy Joel - Piano, C Instrument - Late Intermediate Digital Sheet Music | Sheet Music Plus

Shop and Buy Piano Man sheet music. C Instrument sheet music book by Billy Joel: John Fries at Sheet Music Plus. (A0.500242).

www.sheetmusicplus.com

Well that was one bit of the thread when it kind of went off in that direction as an example .

But the main discussion is broadly about the student dictating what the teacher teaches so it is much wider than that, about teaching methods in general.

Was a bit concerned re the title @Pete Thomas its not about dictating but learning in an alternative way that fits me..

 

[Pete Thomas]

Was a bit concerned re the title @Pete Thomas its not about dictating but learning in an alternative way that fits me..

That’s what the thread is about.

I thought the quote implied the student pays the teacher so can say what they teach. That is what the thread is discussing surely?

If I'm paying for their time surely I should take my agenda out of the lessons.

If this means what I think it does (ie the student should be able to say what methods a teacher uses) then I think it could be quite an interesting discussion hence starting the new thread.

 

[thomsax]

"Are you saying it's a good thing or a bad thing?"

I think it's a bad thing. I never started a 3 years education to tell my students that how hard they had to work. Sooner or later they discovered that themselves. I think it's a little bit of old time teaching. Don't underestimate the students.

"Some students respond well to hearing the hard truth, others do not."

Yes, always the truth. I never told my students about how hard I had to work for 30 years ago. We have better methods today and cooking technique (I worked for 25 years at restaurants schools). I was going to educate tomorrows chefs and give them a nuanced picture of what was coming.

 

[skeller047]

It’s nice that it works for you. It doesn’t for everyone. I’ve tried this on a number of occasions over the last 50 years. If I stop playing the 20 or so tunes for a few weeks after I’ve "got them down" they’ve gone. The last thing I want to do is play the same tunes for the rest of my life so I gave up the futile task of memorising stuff and enjoyed playing instead. If I have to play the correct notes for a particular gig then written dots serve me very well.

It didn’t work for me the first time I tried it. I persisted (mostly because I wanted to). It seems to me that “That doesn’t work for me” is often code for “I don’t want to work that hard”.

About forgetting - just recording the songs, then playing them back is usually enough to remind me how that went, and a few days of refreshing memory usually kicks it back into place. (Remembering where I put the recording is a different problem…) I’m often amazed at how well I remember a tune I learned 20 or 30 years ago, and haven’t heard or played since.

I don’t want to dismiss your experience, but I think this is a critical skill for someone that performs regularly. And it does take work. I also read notes, I used to be a prolific sight reader. I’m not so fast anymore, as I don’t gig regularly now. No problem if that’s what works for you.

However, I am concerned about the idea of writing note names above lyrics, I see that as a huge dead end. I was really trying to help eb424 find a way out of the dilemma.

Well that was one bit of the thread when it kind of went off in that direction as an example .

But the main discussion is broadly about the student dictating what the teacher teaches so it is much wider than that, about teaching methods in general.

Yeah I get that. I think two things about this. First, students should choose their teachers wisely. Second, teachers should be clear that they have expectations.

This is a trend in culture that disturbs me. If a teacher says “You need to learn your scales” and a student says “I just want to play music”, then we have a tendency these days to find a way to accommodate the student. Why? Doesn’t the teacher know what he or she is doing? As a teacher, I would say “OK, that’s a valid attitude. Foolish, but valid. I can’t help you. That will be $50.”

This kind of thing pervades all levels of society - politics, education, the professional world, etc. I think we do people a disservice trying to over-accommodate.

How should a physics teacher respond if a student says “I want to do astrophysics but I can’t deal with calculus”?

 

[Pete Thomas]

As a teacher, I would say “OK, that’s a valid attitude. Foolish, but valid. I can’t help you. That will be $50.”

I might say something along those lines. But ideally hope to clarify before turning up and wasting my time and their money.

 

[skeller047]

Oh yeah, I’d be nice about it, explain the importance of scales and arpeggios as foundations, maybe probe why the person is reluctant to learn them, stuff like that. Maybe even try to convince them that scales ARE music. We’d have a discussion…

But I’d be sure to get the $50 too…

 

[eb424]

It’s called a lead sheet. Here’s Piano Man on a single page. There is no reason to attempt to read from a full score. I bet all your tunes could fit on one page. (This is reposted from sheetmusicplus preview page):

Link (tap image to preview)

Piano Man by Billy Joel - Piano, C Instrument - Late Intermediate Digital Sheet Music | Sheet Music Plus

Shop and Buy Piano Man sheet music. C Instrument sheet music book by Billy Joel: John Fries at Sheet Music Plus. (A0.500242).

www.sheetmusicplus.com

Hi @lydian Thanks as always.I think id really struggle without the words..notes are a bit different when transposed to d major..would i have to take it up an octave?