Spring tension

[Bobby G]

Adjusting your springs can make the action feel a lot lighter as less pressure is needed to depress the keys. I've adjusted some springs on my alto, mainly the r.h. side keys, l.h. pinky keys and the spring on the octave mechanism. The difference is very noticeable, everything feels much more fluid, even to a slower player like me.

As long as the cups snap shut or open nicely when the key is released, and seal ok, is there a limit to how much the spring tension should be slackened? At the moment everything is feeling quite light and smooth, and also even up and down the horn. I may have a crack at my tenor next.

Do some players prefer a slightly harder feel?

Cheers, Bob

 

[Linky Lee]

I like to feel some resistance and some force acting back upon my fingers but I like it to be smooth and fluid without being too hard to press down.

I find it's just about balance, the action can work really smoothly and fast and feel responsive and alive, or it can be really soft and loose and work just as fast. Though I prefer the former.

I think if you slackened the springs off too much it would be terrible because some keys have to be sprung to a certain amount of tension for the mechanism to operate, and the tensions would be all over the place. Also it would slow down if over loose as it wouldn't snap back quick enough and you may start finger flapping!

 

[griff136]

I think linky lee has everything just about covered here, however I would say that if you slacken off for example a side C key it may still spring shut under the pressure of the spring but it could also be de tensioned enough for the key to be blown open when playing.

 

[Bobby G]

Hi Griff, yes I took things like the possibility of blowing keys/pads open into consideration when I slackened the springs off, and even after doing it there's still a good 'snap' there. I intentionally took the side E a bit too far to see what happens before tensioning it up again, so now I've got things a bit more even - I'd been thinking the l.h. pinky and r.h. side keys were comparitively hard work compared to the main stack keys, and now it all feels good. It feels lighter yet still positive, so I don't feel like I've got nothing to push against. From what you say there must be a limit to how far you can back springs off, but the optimum setting will be a personal thing.

Cheers, Bob

 

[griff136]

"From what you say there must be a limit to how far you can back springs off"

that's when the spring snaps!

"but the optimum setting will be a personal thing"

you're right there.

 

[Bobby G]

Thanks Griff, as you know I like a bit of a tinker, but I also try to be careful and only make gradual adjustments. I wouldn't want to mess things up by overdoing things or being heavy-handed.

Do springs break fairly easily, or do you have to yank them quite hard?

Cheers, Bob

 

[griff136]

I find that needle springs break a lot easier than the stainless steel ones that you find on yamahas etc.

I tend to pull/push them just below the tip/end of the spring.
you can get pliers that do this job but I find they put kinks in the springs so I do my bending by hand.

 

[Linky Lee]

When replacing springs how do you do that...

I decided to take my saxophone apart and work on it as a bit of a project when my brothers asleep and I can't make loud noises.

I want to take the springs of so I can clean the saxophone body, but I want to know how to put them back in again. I've noticed they seem to be bent over the post to hold them in place.

I think it would be best to replace the springs anyway, they are very old. Would a standard set do or are specific sizes needed for each key?

And yes... I've already pricked myself with a spring

 

[Bobby G]

Fortunately, I have a Yamaha alto so the springs are the stronger type, and some of them are actually quite chunky. I have a couple of small metal rods, about 4 inches, with a hook at one end so by pulling the spring gently towards its end I can adjust the tension without putting a kink in the spring. I've also slackened the palm key springs, which are a curved piece of flat spring screwed to the underside of the key, by very slightly straightening out the curve of the spring.

I'm eyeing up my tenor now for some further, heh heh, experiments

Cheers, Bob

 

[griff136]

Linky_Lee wrote:

I want to take the springs of so I can clean the saxophone body, but I want to know how to put them back in again. I've noticed they seem to be bent over the post to hold them in place.

I think it would be best to replace the springs anyway, they are very old. Would a standard set do or are specific sizes needed for each key?

I would keep the springs on the sax if theres nowt wrong with them. I usually put cork or rubber over the spring tips to stop being pricked.

I never remove the springs to clean a sax unless theyre rusted and need replacing. You just have to go careful and take your time.

As regards to removing springs i use a set of smooth pliers and a canvas hammer to tap the spring out in one.

springs should not be bent over the post to keep them in place. they should have the ends (non pointy end) flattened with a hammer so that the end is thicker than the body of the spring and then the spring is placed back in its post and squeezed home with a set of spring pliers.

as regards to spring sets - I steer clear of spring sets and pad sets and prefer to measure and fit each spring individually.

 

[Linky Lee]

I've done that with my pads. I bought a bunch of individual ones. Actually worked out cheaper than a set 😱

I may just leave the springs then. They can just be straightened up a bit and set to a proper tension. Though after I've cleaned the sax and re-padded it. I may give it to a tech to go over it and do the set-up themselves. Shouldn't be too expensive that way.

And educational! wow!

 

[jambo]

This may sound like a stupid guys question.... but where abouts on the saxophone are the Springs? (the ones that can be changed to make the action slicker ect?

 

[Linky Lee]

under or by the sides of the posts that the keys are fixed to.

They are generally black (even the blued steel springs 😛 ) and are pretty smallish. If they haven't snapped Griff seems to reckon that it's worth keeping them and just adjusting the tension by bending them more or less.

There are other springs that can be found under keys like the palm keys that are attached to the key and flex against a plate on the body of the sax. Again bending works here to alter the tension.

 

[Bobby G]

They don't look like a curly spring, they are a straight spring that looks like a piece of wire attached to the post, and held against a small protrusion (techically a nubbin, or dibble) on the rod. If you press a key the spring is pushed against its tension via the rotation of the rod, so that when the key is released, the spring snaps back into place. If you unhook the spring from its nubbin, or dibble, you will see it spring away a certain distance. If you carefully bend the spring so that its resting place is a little nearer to the nubbin, or dibble, then hook it back in place, the key will feel lighter and require less effort. Of course, you don't want to de-tension the spring too much or you will end up with a condition known technically as flappipad.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Linky Lee]

Very good point there Bob... Flappipad is a terrible thing to be diagnosed with. 😛

I hadn't thought about explaining that they wern't a 'spring' in the traditional curly-wurly sense.... now I'm hungry for cheap chocolate.

 

[jambo]

so what do you do to the springs to change the action?

 

[Linky Lee]

you bend them towards or away from where they reside once connected to the keys to make the action harder or softer.

 

[griff136]

you remove the needle springs from their key by unhitching them from the little grooved nipple that is attached to the key - the spring should return to a posistion where it is under no pressure,
to strengthen a spring you need to increase the distance from the tip of the spring to the key. Be careful as too much tension and the needle springs will break.

to decrease the tension do the opposite ie decrease the distance.

A good tool for doing this - if you havent got a spring hook is a fair sized crochet hook - cheap too.

once tension has been adjusted, re hitch the spring onto its latch.

 

[Bobby G]

Latch, or nipple, those are the words I was searching for when I was using nubbin, or dibble. I'm sure you've got the meaning, though.

If you're going to have a go Jambo, find an easily accessible spring or two and experiment. You'll find you won't need to bend them very much at all to make a noticeable difference to the feel of the key. If the spring, when unhooked and adjusted, is just touching it's latch/nipple/nubbin/dibble on the 'wrong' side, there's probably not enough tension in it, so bend it slightly away from the latch. Even though the action will be lighter, the keys still need to move quite smartly to their home position.

Cheers, Bob