Tech/maintenance SHWoodwind Updates

[Stephen Howard]

It's brass - the usual very tough stuff the Chinese seem to favour.
Never seen any pot metal Chinese horns - at least not since the Parrot/Lark days, and that was just soft brass.

 

[turf3]

"Pot metal" has a specific meaning. Pot metal is also called "white metal" and it's an alloy, with extremely wide tolerances on its composition, primarily of zinc and aluminum.

Poor quality brass castings, or brass of an unsuitably soft or weak alloy, are just poor quality brass castings or the wrong alloy, but they're not pot metal.

I suspect pot metal has almost never been used for sax keys. Poor quality cast parts, yep.

 

[Ivan]

"Pot metal" has a specific meaning

If you are being literal...

Or, it can have the tongue-in-cheek meaning of any cheap metal alloy, unfit for purpose

 

[Stephen Howard]

In this trade, in the UK at least, the common term for it was Mazak. Boosey & Hawkes used it for their early range of Regent and Edgware clarinets. Many a rookie repairer found out they were dealing with a Mazak key when the whole thing melted into a blob under the gas gun. Ironically enough the Chinese clarinets of the same period had nickel silver keys. Go figure.
Used to be seen a lot on trumpet valves too.

 

[PigSquealer]

I asked about the pot metal due to recent unpleasant adventures.
I can only describe the unit as Asian with white gloves. Less than three years old.
Attempting to straighten a key(s) in the usual manner ended up in a disastrous snap in two. Observing the break, the metal had the white frosty appearance of pot metal. I did not send a sample out for metallurgical testing of composition. Next time I will just state it’s not brass.

 

[Ghr9204]

Asian with white gloves. Less than three years old. Attempting to straighten a key(s) in the usual manner ended up in a disastrous snap in two. [...] metal had the white frosty appearance of pot metal.

This is good to know. The "Venus" brand of decent metallurgy seems to have run its course & is fading, pro'ly no longer in production.

I recently purchased a Cecelio Mendini demonstrator alto in like new condition with optional black nickel plating and usual white gloves, electronic tuner, reeds, etc. as with new Mendini's.

May be a Selmer copy; will know more when I run it through my tests. Appears the keywork is solid good brass.

Your tidbit of info, @PigSquealer is a good warning to the recent plethrora of off-brand generic alto saxes hitting the market on many on-line general merchandise (non-musical instrument) sites for easily under $300 US -- that "buyer beware". 😱

Also I've taken notice by others here on my earliest B&H Edgware Bb Clarinet (I have 3 of various years) -- key work could be "pot metal", to go slow on attempts toward any straightening.

 

[turf3]

I asked about the pot metal due to recent unpleasant adventures.
I can only describe the unit as Asian with white gloves. Less than three years old.
Attempting to straighten a key(s) in the usual manner ended up in a disastrous snap in two. Observing the break, the metal had the white frosty appearance of pot metal. I did not send a sample out for metallurgical testing of composition. Next time I will just state it’s not brass.

Sounds like pot metal.

And so it appears that bottom-feeder horns are still using it for keys, in some cases. I stand corrected.

 

[turf3]

In this trade, in the UK at least, the common term for it was Mazak. Boosey & Hawkes used it for their early range of Regent and Edgware clarinets. Many a rookie repairer found out they were dealing with a Mazak key when the whole thing melted into a blob under the gas gun. Ironically enough the Chinese clarinets of the same period had nickel silver keys. Go figure.
Used to be seen a lot on trumpet valves too.

It appears from Wikipedia (it's internet, so not confirmed) that Mazak was a UK trade name for what is now called Zamak, which is essentially a set of more-controlled variants of "pot metal" - there are actual specifications for the alloy contents in the Zamak/Mazak family, unlike pot metal which truly is "whatever they had on hand to make up the last heat".

In the end, the $130 saxophone HAS to have had some corners cut. Mystery meat keywork is just one way.

 

[Ghr9204]

... Mazak was a UK trade name for what is now called Zamak, which is essentially a set of more-controlled variants of "pot metal" - there are actual specifications for the alloy contents in the Zamak/Mazak family, unlike pot metal which truly is "whatever they had on hand to make up the last heat".

In the end, the $130 saxophone HAS to have had some corners cut. Mystery meat keywork is just one way.

Diecast Zamak metallurgy was used on Cox model aeroplane internal combustion motors from about mid 1950's until around late 1970's, for their bulkhead mounted fuel tank backs.

A Zinc alloy, it was softer than aluminium and somewhat brittle, but tough enough to contain 4 mounting lugs for screws or small bolts and metering passageway with adjustment needle valve for controlling the air-fuel mixture.

Zamak would be able to withstand the mild heat required in hot melt gluing fastening pads into sax pad cups, but will shear/fracture if any force beyond a very slight bending occurs.

When the Zamak back moulds were worn out, Cox chose to use moulded fiber reinforced plastic backs instead for all integral tank motors from that point on.

 

[PigSquealer]

In the end, the $130 saxophone HAS to have had some corners cut. Mystery meat keywork is just one way.

What’s the cost difference of decent brass to mystery meat metal ?
£€$1.00. Ok $15 material cost increase? Any additional production costs related to using brass ? Honestly, I can’t comprehend the logic. All the time and effort to produce a beautiful looking instrument. But all with sub-par materials.

 

[mizmar]

What’s the cost difference of decent brass to mystery meat metal ?

An alternative would be that there's another factory altogether which makes wind instrument key work.
Then the question is - in addition to raw . material costs - what's the minimum cost of tooling-up and producing several gross of each key? Possibly copying and/or adopting an existing design and process.
Sometimes the choice of material etc. was decide years ago and is now just what the factory does.

 

[Ghr9204]

It may be less expensive to create moulds and mass produce diecast parts than multi-part assemblies of stamped pad cup silver soldered to diecast brass cup arm, & etc.

The downside is lack of flexibility for adjustments.

As the metallurgy is softer, I can see metal creep where keys over time sag from continuous cyclic finger pressure, tempting hand straightening, resulting in disastrous shearing failure as @PigSquealer experienced.

Then I can see "Frankenstein" repair-ology with sheet metal stick braces and small screws or rivets to hold the 💔 parts together.

About the only thing one can say after such a repair is, "It's alive, it's alive!". 😛

 

[Ivan]

Next time I will just state it’s not brass.

...snot brass is even cheaper and softer than pot metal?

 

[Ghr9204]

...snot brass is even cheaper and softer than pot metal?

Adds new meaning to "pig metal"?

 

[Stephen Howard]

It's been a while!
Two new reviews - both 'Boutweaqued' altos. First up is the Theo Wanne Shakti alto. Not a bad bit of kit for the price in it's day - and a decent bet on the secondhand market.

Theo Wanne Shakti Alto Saxophone Review

A workbench review of the Theo Wanne Shakti alto sax

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

And then we have the Ishimori Wood Stone New Vintage alto. The blurb for this horn is impressive; I never knew that so many little things could make such a difference to the tone. And I still don't. But I do know what does...

Ishimori Wood Stone New Vintage Alto Saxophone Review

A workbench review of the Ishimori Wood Stone New Vintage alto sax

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

Finally, it's been five years since I last knocked out a Notes article. Clearly the muse is with me again...

Standards and stuff.

Of standards and stuff

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

 

[Colin the Bear]

Fascinating read as always and very much appreciated. Your reviews have guided my purchases.

One of the pictures was blank. The Wayne Shakti palm keys. It might be this phone.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Fascinating read as always and very much appreciated. Your reviews have guided my purchases.

One of the pictures was blank. The Wayne Shakti palm keys. It might be this phone.

Glad you enjoyed them!

The Shakti palm key shot is an animated gif. Shows up on my phone OK, so maybe it's a settings thing?
Mind you, not that you can read the site on a phone 🙂

 

[jonf]

Glad you enjoyed them!

The Shakti palm key shot is an animated gif. Shows up on my phone OK, so maybe it's a settings thing?
Mind you, not that you can read the site on a phone 🙂

Plays fine on a Windows PC. Slightly alarming level of play on the key!

 

[Colin the Bear]

Had another look. Working. It'll be this phone.