Tech/maintenance SHWoodwind Updates

[greenstripe]

I've had a skip through and wondered if the review should just be a link to the black museum section

 

[Stephen Howard]

It wasn't far off it!

 

[mizmar]

tendency of the Italian manufacturers to big up the 'sound' and wander off down the pub.

Gave me a smile. I was on an experiment/project that was 90% Italian. The concept was so elegant... The execution? Not so much.

Perfect engineering has; Italians for style, French for the maths, Germans for precision, Swiss for the money and Brits to make it work.

 

[Jimmymack]

Has the new owner sent it back or are they stuck with it?

 

[Stephen Howard]

Has the new owner sent it back or are they stuck with it?

Stuck with it. I did say that had it bought it in the UK (no-one over here seems to be selling them anymore) I'd have said to take it back.
It's OK now - plays and feels as it should, so it's not like he's stuck with a pile of scrap. Just a bit more costly than anticipated.

 

[stitch]

I hope he mentioned its shortcomings to Borgani ... along with your bill.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I hope he mentioned its shortcomings to Borgani ... along with your bill.

I have no doubt they'll hear about it.

 

[Jimmymack]

Tried the Borgani site and can't connect. Must be a coincidence.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Tried the Borgani site and can't connect. Must be a coincidence.

Hmmm, same here.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Shocking. 😱

 

[PigSquealer]

I’m curious how your instruments are going to play three months from now when it’s cold. I notice a difference in the adjustments between hot weather and cold. Especially with high humidity swings.

 

[PigSquealer]

Tried the Borgani site and can't connect. Must be a coincidence.

Hmmm, same here.

Interesting, I had no problem connecting here in Los Angeles. The site is functioning as it should. Even going to the contact us page.

Borgani Prof. Orfeo S.n.c. di Orfeo Borgani & C.

borgani.com

On a longshot it may be this blasted heat wave. your networks may not have the cooling capacity that we have here.

 

[Tenor Viol]

I’m curious how your instruments are going to play three months from now when it’s cold. I notice a difference in the adjustments between hot weather and cold. Especially with high humidity swings.

In normal circumstances, unlike this week, the swings in the UK are not particularly extreme. It's unusual for winter daytime temperatures to be below about 4C or 5C (about 40f) and for summer temperatures to spend much time above about 22/23C (75f). Obviously there's the odd exception. It's rare to get extreme variations from that, but it does sometimes happen, this last week being a case where we've had several days of temperatures in the mid to high 30s (over 90f). The last 'hard' winter with a protracted cold spell where daytime temperatures were below freezing was 2010.

 

[PigSquealer]

Our daytime temperatures have been averaging 18°(66°f) nights and 32°(89°f) days. It’s midnight here and the humidity is 80%. Not a cloud in the sky. Daytime the humidity is around 35-40%. It’s actually been nice weather. Could just really use some rain. For the most part I find going from cold weather to hot being the biggest realm of change.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Interesting, I had no problem connecting here in Los Angeles. The site is functioning as it should. Even going to the contact us page.

Borgani Prof. Orfeo S.n.c. di Orfeo Borgani & C.

borgani.com

On a longshot it may be this blasted heat wave. your networks may not have the cooling capacity that we have here.

I think it must have been a coincidence, as the site came back up a day or so later.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I’m curious how your instruments are going to play three months from now when it’s cold. I notice a difference in the adjustments between hot weather and cold. Especially with high humidity swings.

While thermal expansion/contraction is a very real issue in engineering terms, the relative crudity of instrument design means it’s very unlikely to pose a problem.
You could, if you were so inclined, work out the tolerances required between a brass/nickel-silver key barrel and the steel shaft upon which it pivots – but it’s a hell of a lot of faffing around.
Much simpler to go with empirical data.

When I set an action up I’m aiming for a snug clearance fit – which means that while there should be no detectable play between a rod and a barrel, the rod ought to be just able to drop through the barrel under its own weight.
The range of temperatures over which this test will hold true is quite wide. In my workshop it can be anything from -5c to 45c (23f – 113f) and that’s never shown up any problems.

The only time you’re likely to spot any temperature-related binding is when you’re fitting the pads and heating the key to a temperature sufficient to melt the shellac.
Every once in a while I’ll come across a key that gets sluggish at this temperature – but this tends to be due to the barrel expanding along its length and binding between the pillars rather than the barrel binding on the rod. And at that temperature the key is uncomfortably hot to the touch. It’s not something to worry about because it’s related to the differential between a hot key and a cold body. Under normal working conditions both the keys and the body will be at the same temperature.
A similar effect can sometimes be seen when using a freezing spray on a key.

And after three months of use? Wear and tear means that those tolerances will be ever so slightly wider – so if an action’s going to bind, it’s only going to do it on the workbench.

Expansion/contraction is really only an issue on wooden or plastic bodied instrument (clarinets, typically) whereby the movement of the body material can cause pillars to pinch the key barrels. This is why I chill the instrument after setup, to ensure I catch any keys that bind. This procedure is particularly important for plastic bodied instruments.

How close a tolerance can you get away with?

Well, I have on my bench an oiler; it’s a hypodermic syringe which I made using the surgical steel plunger from a commercial syringe and a nickel-silver body – to which the plunger has been lapped to an airtight fit. It doesn’t jam up at the sort of low temperatures I see in the workshop, and nor does it leak at the high ones.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Client picked up his Borgani the other day - absolutely delighted with it now. I mentioned that it played remarkably similar to my TJ RAW (which he tried) but that it has a slightly softer presentation. Fortunately that's exactly what he was looking for!
The stupid thing is, had it arrived on my workbench in the condition it left it, it would have got an excellent review - but there's no way I can give a pass to a five grand horn that needs £500's worth of remedial work right out of the box.

 

[mizmar]

I can't think of many realistic situations where it'd be acceptable to purchase something for £5k and have to pay another 10% to make it usable (ignoring consumables).

 

[Stephen Howard]

I can't think of many realistic situations where it'd be acceptable to purchase something for £5k and have to pay another 10% to make it usable (ignoring consumables).

Well, technically-speaking the horn was usable...just not as usable as it ought to have been at the price. But I get the drift, and agree completely. It's not good enough.

 

[saxyjt]

Perfect engineering has; Italians for style, French for the maths, Germans for precision, Swiss for the money and Brits to make it work.

There are many stories like that, heaven and hell, wife, cook, driver etc...

But the reality behind this is that in a number of instances European products are better than US ones simply because the target market is quite varied in terms of their expectations and the products must meet all of these requirements. The US market has been using the same products for years, like washing machines, and they don't even know something different exists.

Cars were like that too... IMHO. 😳