Tech/maintenance SHWoodwind Updates

[PigSquealer]

Maybe it was set up on a hot day in Italy
Regardless at that kind of money I would expect a more refined product delivered.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Me? For £5.5k I'd have bought a nice Chinese sax, replaced my car, done up the house and still had change. NB. No style at all me. 😉

 

[Jimmymack]

These smart ass remarks are worthless, we're talking about a duff saxophone here not a national characteristic, there are plenty of Borganis making plenty of people happy. Italian engineers have a good reputation but some people feel they can chime in and rubbish them. Let's keep the party polite, at least the Italians are making saxophones.

 

[mizmar]

There are many stories like that, heaven and hell, wife, cook, driver etc...

There are. My version is from first hand experience. The only thing I missed out was: Greeks for chaos (strange that there's no Greek word for khaos)

Let's keep the party polite

It's cool. I've worked my entire professional life in international collaborations and this is a regular thing to joke about after work...
.... Except the Scandinavians, who go straight off to pick up the kids.

 

[greenstripe]

It's a new horn trying to capture the sound and feel of a vintage horn - that kind of money buys you a decent Selmer VI that's had an overall.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Yes but...who wants to play in overalls?

 

[greenstripe]

Yes but...who wants to play in overalls?

Mike and the Mechanics?

 

[PigSquealer]

there are plenty of Borganis making plenty of people happy. Italian engineers have a good reputation but some people feel they can chime in and rubbish them. Let's keep the party polite, at least the Italians are making saxophones.

very true! Actually when you think about it any facility producing product has an error margin. These instruments are made by humans. I’m reasonably certain it’s human to have a bad day once in a while.
i’ve never known anyone to wake up in the morning and intentionally have a bad day.

 

[Stephen Howard]

very true! Actually when you think about it any facility producing product has an error margin. These instruments are made by humans. I’m reasonably certain it’s human to have a bad day once in a while.
i’ve never known anyone to wake up in the morning and intentionally have a bad day.

Sure, mistakes can be made during manufacturing - but thats why there's usually a system of quality control in place to catch these errors before the product makes it out of the factory gate. In instances where this fails I would expect to see maybe a couple of issues at best - such as the 0.15mm gap in the top stack action I found on the Yanagisawa A-WO33.
I think it's fair to say that the issues on the Borgani were 'wholesale' and would have required more than one person to have had more than a single bad day.

As I said in the review, it's about expectations. For that kind of money I would expect there to be someone in the factory who looks at the workmanship and says "Nope, not good enough - try again."
And by way of contrast, I had a client bring in a Conn-Selmer Premiere alto yesterday. £1600 retail. Absolutely banging horn in every respect - and a very real joy to see such a well-made horn at such a bargain price. It easily competes with the TJ SR and the Yamaha 480 in the same price bracket - and had I had the time to run up a review on it I might well have said that it redefines what you can get for the money.

Horns like that raise the bar - as the humble Yamaha 21 did back in the '70s. If a horn manufacturer wants to play in the marketplace they have to know that they're competing against such standards - and the more they charge us, the fewer mistakes they can afford to make.

 

[PigSquealer]

Sure, mistakes can be made during manufacturing - but thats why there's usually a system of quality control in place to catch these errors before the product makes it out of the factory gate. In instances where this fails I would expect to see maybe a couple of issues at best - such as the 0.15mm gap in the top stack action I found on the Yanagisawa A-WO33.
I think it's fair to say that the issues on the Borgani were 'wholesale' and would have required more than one person to have had more than a single bad day.

As I said in the review, it's about expectations. For that kind of money I would expect there to be someone in the factory who looks at the workmanship and says "Nope, not good enough - try again."
And by way of contrast, I had a client bring in a Conn-Selmer Premiere alto yesterday. £1600 retail. Absolutely banging horn in every respect - and a very real joy to see such a well-made horn at such a bargain price. It easily competes with the TJ SR and the Yamaha 480 in the same price bracket - and had I had the time to run up a review on it I might well have said that it redefines what you can get for the money.

Horns like that raise the bar - as the humble Yamaha 21 did back in the '70s. If a horn manufacturer wants to play in the marketplace they have to know that they're competing against such standards - and the more they charge us, the fewer mistakes they can afford to make.

All very true as well. I can actually say your article review seemed a little restrained. This particular unit practically had one foot in the recycle bin. I’ve seen better fit and finish work on a $250 junk import. Too bad they make them with pot metal and fake leather. No doubt this tenor involved more than one person having a bad day. Complete QC failure. This should have never gone out the door.

Almost makes me wonder if it is an excellent fake ??
I’m having a hard time buying the baloney with the serial number on the neck. Why have a serial number if it doesn’t match !!
Then that awful fit. Even an apprentice plumber could do better.
Fake, copy, replica or real ?

cheers

 

[Stephen Howard]

All very true as well. I can actually say your article review seemed a little restrained. This particular unit practically had one foot in the recycle bin. I’ve seen better fit and finish work on a $250 junk import. Too bad they make them with pot metal and fake leather. No doubt this tenor involved more than one person having a bad day. Complete QC failure. This should have never gone out the door.

Almost makes me wonder if it is an excellent fake ??
I’m having a hard time buying the baloney with the serial number on the neck. Why have a serial number if it doesn’t match !!
Then that awful fit. Even an apprentice plumber could do better.
Fake, copy, replica or real ?

cheers

It's often hard to strike the right balance. I had a go at the wash-up/summary at least half a dozen times before I settled on something that I felt was as reasonable as could be under the circumstances.

Absolutely no chance of it being a fake - it was ordered direct from the factory, and then there was that follow-up communication about the misnumbered crook.

 

[PigSquealer]

It's often hard to strike the right balance. I had a go at the wash-up/summary at least half a dozen times before I settled on something that I felt was as reasonable as could be under the circumstances.

Absolutely no chance of it being a fake - it was ordered direct from the factory, and then there was that follow-up communication about the misnumbered crook.

It’s kind of hard to beat pictures with a description of what’s wrong. Going soft understates the lack of quality importance. On the flipside shooting the cook does no good.

Factory signed sealed and delivered. Ouch !

 

[thomsax]

" ..... usually a system of quality control in place to catch these errors before the product makes it out of the factory gate ....". All modern manufactoring starts with a good job before keys, key cups, rods, tubes, necks ... are made. I have a feeling that lots of saxophone manufactors are working in the same way as the big manufactors did with thier scond line saxes. Left-overs and old tools.

 

[Stephen Howard]

All modern manufactoring starts with a good job before keys, key cups, rods, tubes, necks ... are made. I have a feeling that lots of saxophone manufactors are working in the same way as the big manufactors did with thier scond line saxes. Left-overs and old tools.

Some of my tools are over 40 years old 🙂
As far as the action goes it really boils down to drilling a hole of the correct size. If a drill/reamer is old and blunt it won't cut well - and usually cuts undersized. Reamers can be resharpened easily enough, and drill bits are so cheap that's it's simply not worth struggling to use a blunt one.

 

[Targa]

Some of my tools are over 40 years old 🙂

Is that all?
I have the first tool I bought new, a hand drill 21/- in '68.
Which pales into insignificance compared to a few of my grandfather's carpentry tools which I still use.
He was a shipwright and worked on the Titanic, and as he said 'it was all right when I finished it'.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Is that all?
I have the first tool I bought new, a hand drill 21/- in '68.
Which pales into insignificance compared to a few of my grandfather's carpentry tools which I still use.
He was a shipwright and worked on the Titanic, and as he said 'it was all right when I finished it'.

Some of them may be rather older - but certainly my specialist repair tools will only date back to 1978.
Probably the oldest tool I have is a casting spoon that belonged to my grandad. He worked at a foundry in East London from the age of 12 and used a set of such tools to tweak the sand casts prior to pouring.

 

[PigSquealer]

@Stephen Howard care to do a review on old Crusty? I guarantee you this will be a most fascinating experience. A genuine once in a lifetime opportunity on a very unique instrument. This one deserves attention from only the worlds finest craftsman. Have a pint and study the pictures in great detail.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Oy oy oy! My life!!
I'd take you up on the offer, but I'm currently in the process of rebuilding/reviewing a crusty old baritone - and I reckon that cover's my year's worth of crustiness.

That a set of Bergen screwdrivers in the corner? If not, they're near identical copies.

 

[PigSquealer]

Oy oy oy! My life!!
I'd take you up on the offer, but I'm currently in the process of rebuilding/reviewing a crusty old baritone - and I reckon that cover's my year's worth of crustiness.

That a set of Bergen screwdrivers in the corner? If not, they're near identical copies.

Well now we don’t want you having too much fun. You could accidentally smile and place yourself completely out of character😉
I have another individual I’m considering offering the task to.
Can’t send you a PM. You box is full.

Yes those are genuine Swiss made Bergeon screwdrivers. Occasionally I still repair watches. Those have been on my bench something like 25 years. Still has all but one of the replacement tips. Don’t know where that one went don’t remember don’t care.

 

[thomsax]

Some of my tools are over 40 years old

Yes, but you are not making 500-1000 saxophones/years. To justify a high price saxophones you must invest in tools, machines software and of course a QC in every part of the production. A neck like the one you showed in your article should be sorted out.