Mouthpieces Sharp Teeth

[colin_]

Okay, following my introduction, here's my first proper post...

Quick recap: My 8 year old son and I are currently sharing an alto. We've been using pads on the MP but he goes through them in a couple of hours and the original (not great) MP has virtually worn right through.

So I just bought a new Selmer C* MP (which has made a tremendous improvement to our sound) and am doing my best to protect it. We keep replacing the pads and I've tried to get him to relax his embouchure a little but he's already marked the new MP within a few days of practice.


Dental surgery, perhaps?

Thanks,

C

 

[spike]

Just a thought, try loosening his neckstrap a little.
I have had it with a student, and loosening the neckstrap cured his biting and his headaches too.
welcome to the lounge - gruss - spike

 

[Linky Lee]

however sharp your teeth you sharp your teeth you shouldn't be getting through mouthpieces and patches like that!

You may want to invest in a metal mouthpiece with some thinner pads.

Do you have a teacher? I think it is essential to have a teacher at the beginning. Also what reeds are you using? It sounds like he is struggling with the embouchure and is biting to get the notes out. This could be due to a reed which is too strong for him.

If you do end up with buying another mouthpiece, instead of splashing out on a fairly expensive Selmer, the Yamaha 4C is equally as good and almost 1/4 the price.

 

[colin_]

I agree LL, it's not right.

It may be worth trying out a lesser reed strength again. We stepped up to a 2.5 a couple of months ago, which is giving a nice tone and he has no problem making a full sound but we certainly need to try something. I remember he was just the same in the beginning on 1.5s though.

Spike: We've already tried that one, I'm afraid. He still bites but tends to hunch over as well.

Nick has a teacher (though we seem to be a bit short of really good ones in Southampton) and there's a local guy who is currently studying at the Guildhall who pops in when he can to do a bit more on the jazz side.

They both seem quite happy with his embouchure and setup but I'd really like to sort the biting issue. If we can't cure the player at the moment are there any tougher pads that might at least save the MP?

 

[Linky Lee]

Make him go back to the 1.5s

If you don't have any problems stick to the 2.5s for you, but I only use 3 strength reeds after almost 3 years of playing, for many people a 2.5 will be much too hard after a short amount of time.

I'm sure Pete (who lives in Southampton) can advise you of some very good teachers who live locally. There are a few members on this forum from Southampton with teachers.
There has to be something wrong with his embouchure as it's really very extreme to go through a pad in a few hours!

The problem to me sounds like he was biting as his embouchure wasn't developed enough. You're embouchure got developed enough and you moved up reed strength before he was ready too.
Playing on the stronger reeds, he has probably developed his embouchure enough not to bite on a 1.5 now, but not enough to be able to play a 2.5 like yourself.

I assume your 'musical experience' you mentioned was with a wind instrument. If so your embouchure is going to be superior to your sons and will develop quicker as it's probably got a fair amount of 'memory' and toughness built in already.

 

[colin_]

Will do. Certainly worth a try.

My only experience playing wind instruments previously was trombone when I was about 12 but I dropped that after couple of years. I'm foremost a pianist and composer but I think my knowledge through employing session players and general music theory has certainly helped me progress relatively quickly. There's an awfully long way to go yet though.

Thanks for the tips.

C

 

[justin_chune]

Your son is very young to be learning the sax. I've read that it is better for children to start later in order to avoid damaging their developing teeth. Every tutor book has a chapter on how to produce the sound. Usually around page two or three there will be a sentence that includes " and the top teeth rest lightly on the top of the mouthpiece". Everyone who grooves a mouthpiece with their teeth is ignoring that fundamental. I agree with the advice to go back to softer reeds. Buy him a box of Orange-box Rico 1.5s and start over again with a proper embouchure. There will be advice on how to form an embouchure on this site. Check it out. Also, you could put two patches on his mouthpiece until he learns that biting is taboo.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Yes, softer reeds. Are they his first or second teeth? If second they musty be very new so be very very careful, I believe at such an early stage of tooth development you must watch out for pressure starting to set them at an odd angle (either in or out). Best not to bite so hard anyway.

This might be controversial (I know it is because I got a hard tome on SOTW for suggesting it for beginners), but there is an embouchure called double lip, where you put the top lip over the teeth. This will hurt at first of course (just as the bottom lip does for single lip embouchure), but it's worth trying out.

It never did John Coltrane, Lee Allen or Branford Marsalis any harm.

If in any doubt at all see a dentist. (I recommend Painless Potter).

PS. I actually had my teeth filed , but that was due to one being longer than the other and not good for an 8 year old I think,

Come On You Saints...

 

[colin_]

We're just about to have another session and I have some 1.5s soaking so we'll give one a go.

They are his second teeth but he has had them a good while and the dentist is aware of his playing the sax and has looked at hm a couple of times since he started. It's strange to me that neither of the people teaching him were concerned about it but his embouchure does look sound, though clearly there's too much tension there.

I'll let you know how we get on over thee next few sessions.

C

P.S. See how we leapt up the table today. 20th now and looking very comfortable. 😛

 

[mfox]

pad will last me a year at least..he has a problem somewhere with the set up or he is just biting too hard..

 

[Pjonah]

Unbelievable, my pads last indefinitely.

I would be seriously worried about the effect this pressure will have on the incisors of a child at such a young age.

I bit through a mouthpiece once, but that was after a good few years of playing said piece.

You could buy him gum shield for a laugh!

Simon

 

[saxwah]

Hello colin, I started playing just before my 8th bday, and if i remember correctly i was always told to tuck my top teeth into my lip as you would the lower. That was 20 yrs ago and can't remember when i stopped doing this, but i've always presumed i'd developed a lazy technique! my advice' lowly as it is, is to just keep to lower strength reeds... i still prefer to use 2s, its just less effort! i seem to be able to do more with them than the stronger ones (maybe i'd get better if i moved up, but i doubt it)

p.s my teeth were fine for ten yrs before i smashed the front ones bmxing..........and i played every day!

 

[colin_]

Thanks everybody.

I think the lower strength reeds are definitely making a difference now that his embouchure is more developed. I'm also keeping a close watch to ensure there is little pressure there. He is still making small marks on the pads, as his front teeth are quite serrated but he hasn't gone through one in the last few practices.

I hear the advice about starting them too young and we discussed this at the beginning - including with his dentist, who felt it wouldn't be a major problem provided we kept an eye on them. We also talked (not with the dentist) about the weight of the saxophone and back/neck damage etc. and used extra support from underneath the sax in the early stages.

One of my friend's is a professional trumpet player who staretd blowing at age 4, taught by his dad who played too. When he got to school he was already at a decent standard but was refused a teacher because they said he was too young. I think the pressure on your teeth is greater with the trumpet, as there is more resistance there but he, along with many other great players, have survived it. Perhaps if they're not doing much more than an hour a day, it's not as big a problem as some people think.

The thing is that he had already grown out of the recorder by age 7 and is so keen at the moment, it would be a real shame if he lost that enthusiasm and in just a couple of years time he won't have as much time on his hands to practice. I didn't think I would be discussing Lydian modes and jazz repertoire with my 8 year old (9 in October). It's just great to see him developing so quickly and I really hope we haven't made a bad health decision but I think the benefits will far outweigh any minor side effects. Anyway, it would only a small operation to sort it out....Mwahahahaaa!!

 

[dylan_darby]

I had very sharp teeth.Not anymore since I sandpapered them some time ago.
I also did it to my lower teeth 'cause I'd cut trew my lip otherwise.
But of course playing much more loose does help a lot.

dylan Darby

 

[colin_]

You WHAT??

I was thinking more along the lines of using an angle grinder!

** JOKE!! **

Do not try this at home!

C

 

[Pjonah]

Crikey

Maybe the gum shield wasn't so daft after all!

Simon