Saxophones Selmer Supreme alto (quick look)

[PigSquealer]

I love testing stuff.

I didn’t notice

 

[PigSquealer]

There's a lot of prejudice in some opinions.

Beginning with Eric Brand’s hate for Holton’s in his mid ‘30s repair guides.

 

[PigSquealer]

It'll be interesting to see how it stacks up against the one I saw recently.

Would also be interesting to compare SN#’s. Made the same week or months / years apart ?

 

[thomsax]

I‘m not a tech, but I have experience with saxes and different repair philosophies over almost 40 years. And I believe this one is not merely a matter of taste. I have had setups that stay well for a year or two and others that stay well for a decade or more with only minor tweaks. The latter were set up play-free with perfectly aligned cups, carefully levelled toneholes and not-too-soft pads of the right thickness to allow an even installation in the aligned cup.

If I need to fix something on my horns, I can get it leak free for the moment with all sorts of “soft compensation” of my lack of precision, including plenty of shellac/glue, softer pads, teflon wrapping etc. But it does neither stay like this for the same amount of time, nor does it feel the same. I think on the long run it definitely is even cheaper to do it right in the first place. Stays good forever.

I used to sell second-line -, student - or beginners saxes to aspiring rocksax players. Also Amati, Weltklang, Dörfler & Jörka made saxes. Most of the buyers were in their forties and returning to the sax after 20-25 years and they most of them couldn't afford or to justify to buy a Selmer, Keilwerth, Yamaha, Yanagisawa .... . So a cheap and playable sax was enough. To start to talk about premium saxes with them, maybe thier enthusiasm for honking Rocksax would had been lost?

My best sax is a Martin Handcraft (Committee) 1938 tenor, which I played a lot since 1995. A fine horn, well built with fine material and the guy who did the renovation back in 1995 did a very good job. I'm a good owner as well. I have been taken good care of my sax. Cleaning and minor adjustments.

I'm not tech or a good player. I been playing and listening to Blues, R&B, rock&roll ... since late 60's. But I have a story to tell. Right now I'm trying to put together an hour with blues (electric). I use to go to "bluesklubb" and sometimes we are asked to talk and play music (records). I'm going to play and talk about bluessongs which have saxes and play some sax as well A monitor, laptop. backing tracks on a stick and my sax! How to play and blend with my sax in Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Howlin' Wolf, Willy Dixon .... ? A dirty tenor in the style of Eddie Shaw, A.C. Reed, J.T.Brown ...... is the thing. My Martin is a fine blues horn.

 

[PigSquealer]

I used to sell second-line -, student - or beginners saxes to aspiring rocksax players. Also Amati, Weltklang, Dörfler & Jörka made saxes. Most of the buyers were in their forties and returning to the sax after 20-25 years and they most of them couldn't afford or to justify to buy a Selmer, Keilwerth, Yamaha, Yanagisawa .... . So a cheap and playable sax was enough. To start to talk about premium saxes with them, maybe thier enthusiasm for honking Rocksax would had been lost?

My best sax is a Martin Handcraft (Committee) 1938 tenor, which I played a lot since 1995. A fine horn, well built with fine material and the guy who did the renovation back in 1995 did a very good job. I'm a good owner as well. I have been taken good care of my sax. Cleaning and minor adjustments.

I'm not tech or a good player. I been playing and listening to Blues, R&B, rock&roll ... since late 60's. But I have a story to tell. Right now I'm trying to put together an hour with blues (electric). I use to go to "bluesklubb" and sometimes we are asked to talk and play music (records). I'm going to play and talk about bluessongs which have saxes and play some sax as well A monitor, laptop. backing tracks on a stick and my sax! How to play and blend with my sax in Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Howlin' Wolf, Willy Dixon .... ? A dirty tenor in the style of Eddie Shaw, A.C. Reed, J.T.Brown ...... is the thing. My Martin is a fine blues horn.

An honest reply from experience. Well noted the Martin Committee one was/is a fine sax.
Here’s my question. Given the choice today between a new Supreme and a new Comm 1 at same price point. What would the masses choose ?

 

[Stephen Howard]

An honest reply from experience. Well noted the Martin Committee one was/is a fine sax.
Here’s my question. Given the choice today between a new Supreme and a new Comm 1 at same price point. What would the masses choose ?

That's a tough one.

I rebuilt and played a Handcraft bari for years - and then did some work for a guy who played in a noted West Indian band...on a Martin tenor. I tried to buy it off him...but made the rookie mistake of telling him it was the best-sounding tenor I'd ever played. Would you sell if after someone told you that?

So yeah, they have a great inbuilt sound - but they have a LOT of build issues; and let's be honest, the action pales beside even a basic modern horn. Yeah, you can slap modern keywork on them...but it's a hell of a job, and it's not like there aren't some great modern horns out there these days.
Some years later I spent half a day going between my faithful old YTS-23 and a Martin. It was close...damned close...but I stuck with the Yamaha because the action on it was sublime. Tonewise they were closer than you might imagine. And that's why I have tremendous respect for Martin horns...they were way ahead of their time tonally, but they knew where they came from.

But to have to choose between a Supreme and a Martin?
I have two answers.

1: I'd take the Supreme. And while everyone's busy congratulating themselves on how the modern horn beat the vintage banger hands down, I'd sell it and buy something I really liked.

2: Assuming folks were wise to my ruse and nixxed it from the outset, I'd have the Martin - because at the very least I'd enjoy how it sounded...and in time I'd get used to its foibles (or mod the hell out of it).

But...and it's a big but - that's going on a sample of one Supreme. Let's see what the other one delivers.

 

[r. giuseppe]

I haven’t played a Martin unfortunately, but I
had the “no-question-of-money-comparison” for a great early Selmer Series III vs. Conn 10M for more than 10 years, because I owned them both.
For maybe 40 gigs during this time I took the Selmer only twice and both times I missed the Conn.
Is the 10M the better horn? Hell no, rather opposite, if I need to be objective. But the Conn speaks to me in terms of sound and feel in a way the Selmer couldn’t.

One makes me think to myself: “Oh yeah! Don’t be shy! Speak up, you sound so great! This is so strong, powerful and sexy, yet so warm and pleasant! Look at the faces, they want to hear you! Oh, and now hear how beautifully the sound blends with the other saxes. Makes the section sing. Your sound is the salt in this mix!”
While the other one makes you think: “Yes, I can hear myself in the mix. It sounds like a sax. Do I stick out too much? Probably not. Intonation is pretty spot on I guess, so that’s OK. Should I play louder, softer? Better keep listening. Did I mark the other really good reed? It’s two more sets to go.”

As with most choices, it’s 95% emotional, not technical. The 10M puts me in a different mindset only because the sound speaks to me so differently. And this gives me more joy while playing. Would I take the best, most advanced horn in the world instead? Only if it can put me in the same place. If not, then definitely not.

 

[thomsax]

An honest reply from experience. Well noted the Martin Committee one was/is a fine sax.
Here’s my question. Given the choice today between a new Supreme and a new Comm 1 at same price point. What would the masses choose ?

Hard to say. My Martin HC Committee didn't cost me soo much. I bought it as a "ready to play sax". It had slightly oversized sterling silver reflectors installed on the "De'jur Deluxe" pads ( not to soft and not to firm pad ).

From 1968 to today I have just bought /owned one new sax and that was not a good one; a late King Super 20 tenor. So it's hard to think if I should spend my money on a premium sax instead of buying a Martin HC (Committee) or a "The Martin"?

My engagement to the saxophone is more conntected to the music and style of Rock & Roll Saxophone. The sax in itself is not so important. If have money to spend on a new premium sax or to do something connected to Rock & Roll Saxophone I think I would spend my money on having some good Rocksax players coming over for playing, leading/teaching adults and younger players ...... or just for a good hang for a week or so. Too bad I couldn't get David Woodford over here. A true Rock & Roll gunslinger with some Scanish heritage. I had made an agreement with a Volvo 262 C "Bertone" collector ( two doors black top with a small opera window, Renualt V6 engine) to rent a 262 for some days. Woody had an american V6 in his 262 instead of the origial engine. RockSax is more open to other things in our life. Supreme: Classical or Jazz, black sweaters with turtle neck ..... does not turn me on!

A Supreme sax or 5-7 days with Rocksax? I would just reject the Supreme sax. I have a good Rocksax life with less advanced saxes: Martin, New King, Dörfler & Jörka, Amati, Weltklang, Blue Label, King 615, Conn Shooting Star, Indiana .... is not so much about the horns.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Another client brought in a Supreme alto today - just to let me have a quick scrute and a try-out.
This one was as standard brass model. I felt it was a touch livelier than the silver one but well within the difference range I'd expect from any otherwise identical horns. It also had the advantage of there not being a Ref.54 to compare it to - so I had to pull out a fine old Selmer BA for a comparison.
I'd say that my original assessment stands; the Supreme is a rather more reserved horn...which is saying something up against a BA, which isn't known for being a shouty horn.

And there was a problem with the Supreme. When doing octave jumps from the midrange notes to the palm keys, the notes consistently failed. When walking up to the scale to them they at least responded, but without much clarity.
I checked the upper pads and found no issues - which only left the octave pips. Body pip was fine but the crook pip was somewhat gunged up.
I gave it a poke with my special octave pip pipe cleaner (it has tiny nylon filaments woven into it) and had to struggle to get it to go in. Turned out that the pip was partially filled with what appeared to be buffing soap.
It coated the pipe cleaner with a stiff and greasy dark grey/black compound, particles of which could be smeared on a piece of paper.
Once the pip had been cleared the palm key notes responded as they should.

I'm going to be reasonable in my take on this because the client said that there weren't any noticeable issues when he got the horn, which means it must have passed a playtest inspection in the factory. However, I would have though that the reduced response would have been picked up.
That it subsequently got worse suggests to me that the issue was borderline and that a little more residue (from normal playing) was enough to tip it over the edge.
On the flip side, checking the octave key pips for gunk ought to be something that's done as part of any service job. So no brownie points earned there.

I didn't think much of the overall setup (to which the client agreed) and so it's coming back in a month or two when I'm less busy for a proper setup...at which point I think it'll be Review Time!

 

[turf3]

Another client brought in a Supreme alto today - just to let me have a quick scrute and a try-out.
...

I didn't think much of the overall setup (to which the client agreed) and so it's coming back in a month or two when I'm less busy for a proper setup...at which point I think it'll be Review Time!...

Looks like you could be the newest one to engage in that business of taking new Selmers and fixing them up with proper setups and adjustment. I don't know if it's still a big thing, but 20 ish years ago there were several guys who made good money doing that - strip the brand new horn down, replace pads (all? Maybe only a few?), update corks and felts, probably level the worst of the toneholes, fettle the mechanism to get all the play out, and get the thing really sealing well.

It's pretty poor practice to charge what Selmer charges and deliver a "saxophone kit, some assembly and refitting needed". Especially when by all accounts Yamaha and Yanagisawa deliver a "saxophone, ready to play, no adjustment needed".

It's common for violin family instruments to be imported "in the white" from Romania, using that great Carpathian spruce and maple, then the plates graduated, fingerboards, tailpieces, bridges fitted in the US, and finished. But you get a high grade instrument for a lot less money when you do that. They're not charging a premium price.