Beginner impro Scale numbering

[ZeroZero]

re mol?

 

[mizmar]

re mol?

mol means "flat" - so, same as D♭ - would be read "D flat".

To be fair, solmization certainly dates back to a period where flats and sharps where used a lot more sparingly. And, indeed, before universal scale standardisation, ET etc.
And it was much more usual (the only way) to learn a tune by hearing it and singing it back....
Still, a useful tool.

 

[Pete Thomas]

never called a b12th for unkown reasons)

In regard to chord notes there is no need for a 12th altered or otherwise. The even numbers above 7 have no function in that nobody ever needs to think of an 8th, 10th or 12th. An exception is b10 as an alternative for #9. I think it does have some value but many people think not.

9ths, 11ths and 13ths are extensions which people tend to arrive at by continuing in 3rds up from the 7th hence they are odd numbers.

In fact I believe their original derivation may have been from suspend root, 3rd and 5th.

 

[cappers]

Here is your answer........
.................
Z

Thank you @ZeroZero for your very detailed explanation.

I am beginning to understand the use of numbers for chords etc and the concept of root, dominant, 3rd, 4ths etc. and am clear about numbering scales. My teacher introduced modal scales and their deviation from major scales and that made sense. I have a small keyboard and find it helpful for visualising note relationships.

I haven't bothered with the numbering system for remembering tunes as I'm starting to 'see' the notes, their trends and their relationship to other notes instinctively - just as my teacher said I would with time and practice! I have also found that repeatedly 'playing' the same music trying to get it right - note, timing, intonation etc - it sinks in and starts to become (semi)-automatic.

After scales, arpeggios and practice tunes I usually 'play around' by sounding different notes and accidentals to find what sounds good, trying to play what comes to mind. I find the latter good fun and I have 'found' several pleasing patterns and riffs (?) just by experimenting with the bit of knowledge I have gained so far.

It's only been three months so far and although I've a long way to go regarding tone and fluency things are beginning to drop into place. Using Zero's analogy, I can now change gear without looking, barely slip the clutch and can look out the rear view mirror at the same time!

Cheers all.

 

[wakyct]

Surely the whole thing is to have one word for each interval?

I imagine because solfa/solfege/solfeggio spread to different countries it acquired different terms. I learned one syllable for each note in solfege. It goes,

Do, Ra, Re, Me, Mi, Fa, Fi, Sol, Si/Le, La, Te/Li, Ti, Do

The syllables like Si/Le are similar to enharmonics, but practically speaking you can just pick one to use.

 

[Ivan]

...nobody ever needs to think of an 8th, 10th or 12th...

Aksk me wot I'm thinking of...

 

[Pete Thomas]

Aksk me wot I'm thinking of...

There's no need because I know what you are thinking of.

 

[Pete Effamy]

There's no need because I know what you are thinking of.

It’s the number 7. That’s magic.

 

[rjazz84]

On the piano, you have A0, Bb0, B0, C1, D1 ... C2, D2 ... C3, D3 where the numbers represent each ascending octave. This way you can refer to a specific key on the piano each key having a unique name.

For Sax I propose;

Bb0, B0, C1, C#/Db1, D1, D#/Eb1, E1, F1, F#/Gb1, G1, G#/Ab1, A1, A#/Bb1, C2, C#/Db2, D2, D#/Eb2, E2, F2, F#/Gb2, G2, G#/Ab2, A2, A#/Bb2, C3, C#/Db3, D3, D#/Eb3, E3, F3, F#/Gb3, G3, G#/Ab3, A3, A#/Bb3, C4

C1 = Low C
C2 = Middle C
C3 = Octave C
C4 = Altissimo (or explosive) C

This would be a system applicable to teaching and learning fingerings but not as helpful for lick or melody transposition.

Typically people use scale degrees for transposition, but the standard system doesn't account for the octave of the note. Sometimes I have written out a lick in numbers and after coming to it later I can't remember which octave some of the notes should be in. ex: in 12 35 1 ...Is the last 1 a leap up to the octave root or a leap back down to the original root?

Has anyone seen a numbering system or notation method that would answer the octave problem in transposable lines?

 

[JSL]

I'm a fan of knowing the notes in a scale or chord numerically, because it places that note in context to the tonic (in the case of a scale) and the chord root (in the case of a chord). For example, the note C in a C major scale is the 1 and is the tonic. That same note in the key of F maj is the 5 and it will sound different in that context. The C in the key of A is the b3 and it will have yet a different sound. And so on. It's easy to over-complicate this when in fact it's pretty simple. I'll attempt to spell it out in the simplest way possible. This has all been covered extensively in posts above, so I'm just trying to 'boil it down' to the essentials.

Scales
The notes in a scale are numbered from 1 to 7. It's best to use the major scale as a reference point and know all the notes by number in the 12 major scales. Then you can apply them as a 'formula' when deriving other scales. Here are a few examples. These are just a few for demonstration purposes; there are many other scales, including other pentatonic scales:

major scale: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
natural minor scale: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
major pentatonic scale: 1 2 3 5 6
minor pentatonic scale: 1 b3 4 5 b7
etc.
(the notes of a major scale are the reference point)

Chords
The notes in a chord are numbered start on the root (as the 1), up in thirds. 1 3 5 7 9 11 13. As already pointed out, 9, 11, 13 are the same notes as 2, 4, 6 in the scale, but this is a chord, so they are extensions. built in 3rds. A few quick examples:

Cmaj7: C E G B (1 3 5 7)
Cmin7: C Eb G Bb (1 b3 5 b7)
C7: C E G Bb
C9: C E G Bb D
C13: C E G Bb D F A (1 3 5 b7 9 11 13)
Note: You need to know the scale degrees for the major scale (C maj scale, in this case), as a reference point, to apply those formulae.

Lastly, Roman numerals are used to designate chords. The 'one' chord is I, 'five chord' is V, etc.

Well, I thought I was going to make it simple. It looks a lot more complex on the page than it is. Finally, you aren't thinking about all this when playing music or improvising. It's just a way of understanding what's going on. I'll add one more thought, that I think is important. Eventually you will hear the 3rd or 5th or 6th, etc. in a given key as a specific sound. For example, the 5 sounds different than the 1, and the 7 sounds different than either of those. Same thing with a chord. The 3rd has a specific sound in relation to the chord root, as does the 5th. Each chord tone has a specific sound and it's very helpful to be able to hear & identify them.

Hope that helps. Oh man, way more than I was going to write and probably already too much for a beginner topic, but again, it's not as convoluted or complex as it looks here. It's a bit difficult to explain properly.

 

[cappers]

Thank you @JSL for your detailed reply. As the OP I got my head around this quite a while ago but its informative that you laid it out so clearly.

I noticed something with chords and their derivations. This might be old hat to some but was a satori moment for me:

Using C major as a reference point write all the notes over 3 octaves:

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C​

Take very 3rd note:

C E G B D F A C E G B D F A C​

Now have triads and maj7 chords in sequence:

CEGB DFAC EGBD FACE GBDF ACEG BDFA CEGB​

For other keys add the appropriate accidental(s) e.g. Dmaj, Gmaj:

DF#AC#, GBDF#​

Finally for other chords add the appropriate accidental(s) e.g. D7, Gm7:

DF#AC, GBbDF​

******* Please correct this if wrong as I don't want to post misinformation especially to other beginners.

 

[LostCircuits]

9 11and 13 are only really used when adding chord extensions that go up in 3rds as @skeller047 mention. For melodies just think 1 - 7 but but it’s good to know that

9= 2
4= 11
6=13

Luckily that’s just 3 extra things to know. For now.

I don't have enough fingers. So I think in ASCII code

*☻ ○ ♂ ♦ ♠ ♪

 

[turf3]

Re reading some of the TTS I note the scales are numbered 1-8, C-C etc but do we continue the numbering above mid-C e.g. 8 9 10 11 12 etc.?

TIA

Edit Thanks @skeller047 posted as yours arrived!

Also thanks for correcting 2nd measure, must be tired! The 3rd is 2171 I think.

Do it however works for you.

If you're trying to remember melodies, your memory of the tune ought to tell you whether to go up or down.

 

[JSL]

An exception is b10 as an alternative for #9. I think it does have some value but many people think not.

Kind of an aside, but this is an interesting point, Pete. I do think it has some value, primarily because I have a bit of trouble thinking #9, especially when the b9 is present, which it often is when it comes to dominant chord extensions. So, thinking of it as b10 is not unreasonable. However, I'll admit that I generally 'think' of that (or better yet 'hear' that) chord tone as b3, even if that's not technically correct because the '3' isn't a chord extension and is already present in the chord as a major 3rd. So, guess it's cheating, but when I play the #9 over a G7 chord, I'm thinking & hearing Bb, rather than A#. But at least I know, deep down, it's the #9. Sorry to get in the weeds here, but it's the nature of the beast.

 

[cappers]

Do it however works for you.

If you're trying to remember melodies, your memory of the tune ought to tell you whether to go up or down.

Thanks @turf3 I posted this in February! Very beginner-ish question in hindsight. I think I've come along since then 😉

Good for other newbies though

 

[lydian]

Thank you @JSL for your detailed reply. As the OP I got my head around this quite a while ago but its informative that you laid it out so clearly.

I noticed something with chords and their derivations. This might be old hat to some but was a satori moment for me:

Using C major as a reference point write all the notes over 3 octaves:

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C​

Take very 3rd note:

C E G B D F A C E G B D F A C​

Now have triads and maj7 chords in sequence:

CEGB DFAC EGBD FACE GBDF ACEG BDFA CEGB​

For other keys add the appropriate accidental(s) e.g. Dmaj, Gmaj:

DF#AC#, GBDF#​

Finally for other chords add the appropriate accidental(s) e.g. D7, Gm7:

DF#AC, GBbDF​

******* Please correct this if wrong as I don't want to post misinformation especially to other beginners.

One point of clarification, keep in mind the chords you list are many different types, not just triads and maj7 (none are triads actually). They are, in order,
Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5 Cmaj7.

Adding accidentals based on the key of C to change keys isn't the best strategy given how the chord types also change. I think it's better to simply start on the new root and use the circle of 5ths to work out the key signature. All diatonic chords will follow the same pattern, maj7 m7 m7 maj7 7 m7 m7b5 maj7.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Adding accidentals based on the key of C to change keys isn't the best strategy given how the chord types also change.

Yes, that caught my eye too but I forgot to say so. One thing I'm guilty of is always giving examples in the key of C. Always best to transpose to the different keys instead of adding sharps and flats to the key of C.

 

[JSL]

Yes, that caught my eye too but I forgot to say so. One thing I'm guilty of is always giving examples in the key of C. Always best to transpose to the different keys instead of adding sharps and flats to the key of C.

+1. I think it's fine to give examples in the key of C as long as you make the point that those examples have to be transposed into the other 11 keys. Which is why it's so important to thoroughly learn the 12 major scales.

But I would think it's ok, and maybe best, to use the key of C when showing various scales or chords with C as the tonic (in a scale) or root (in a chord). That way, the alterations (flats or sharps) are clear. For example:

C maj scale: C D E F G A B
C nat min scale: C D Eb F G Ab Bb (flat 3, 6, 7)
C min (dorian) scale: C D Eb F G A Bb (flat 3, 7)
C min/maj7 scale: C D Eb F G A B (flat 3, maj 7)
etc.

Cmaj7 chord: C E G B
Cmin7 chord: C Eb G Bb
Cmin7 b5 chord: C Eb Gb Bb
C7 chord: C E G Bb
C7b9 chord: C E G Bb Db
etc.

The above examples clearly show which notes are 'flatted' (lowered a half step) for each different scale or chord. And this can then be applied to all other keys.

Or am I off-base on this way to teach it to a beginner (I'm not a music teacher)?

 

[ESJohn]

Our first half-hour of rehearsal this evening focused on this, and we practiced concert Bb both singing and playing. Two of our directors had to learn these in their college days and that there were seven more pages available. We're told that learning them will make us better musicians.

 

[mrblackbat]

In our ear training class the teacher said something similar -- it's OK to think of scales in degrees but really the goal is to think in sound, not numbers/letters.

Yes I wholeheartedly agree with this. And using abstract words to describe that sound is a great way to then hold it in your mind.

Practising ear training and listening to intervals is a great way to do this - and come up with your own descriptions of how the sound makes you feel.