Beginner theory Scale numbering

[cappers]

A newbie question - my teacher is away until March and I can't wait for an answer!

In TTS and other resources numbering of the scale notes is used, and this makes sense to me and I can see how this would be helpful for chords etc.

Also seen a youtube vid by Scott Paddock where he uses the scale numbering system (rather than note names) to remember tunes so they can then be played easily in any key by remembering the numbers and their patterns etc.

e.g. rather than GG AF# GA | BB CB AG he remembers 11 27 12 | 22 32 12
which is then applicable to any key (as long as one knows the notes/accidentals).

What is the situation when going up an octave e.g. on C Maj scale: lowC - midC - high C, are all the Cs numbered 1 or are they 1, 8, 16? Same for a tune, if it goes above the octave do the note numbers just increase or go back to 1? And down an octave?

Apologies in advance if the answer is obvious!

 

[skeller047]

A newbie question - my teacher is away until March and I can't wait for an answer!

In TTS and other resources numbering of the scale notes is used, and this makes sense to me and I can see how this would be helpful for chords etc.

Also seen a youtube vid by Scott Paddock where he uses the scale numbering system (rather than note names) to remember tunes so they can then be played easily in any key by remembering the numbers and their patterns etc.

e.g. rather than GG AF# GA | BB CB AG he remembers 11 27 12 | 22 32 12
which is then applicable to any key (as long as one knows the notes/accidentals).

What is the situation when going up an octave e.g. on C Maj scale: lowC - midC - high C, are all the Cs numbered 1 or are they 1, 8, 16? Same for a tune, if it goes above the octave do the note numbers just increase or go back to 1? And down an octave?

Apologies in advance if the answer is obvious!

The answer is not obvious. I can’t speak for others, but I would just use the numbers 1-7. You then have to remember the shape of the melody, to know whether to go up or down. So a movement like 6 -> 3 would be a 5th up or a 4th down. I don’t think there is a formalized “correct” way to do this.

Your example has mistakes in the second measure. It should be “33 43 21”.

When describing chords, we use numbers up to 13. There is a formal system for this, where numbers above 8 refer to “extensions” or “color tones”. Because chords are built on stacked 3rds, we use the higher numbers to include all those below it. For example, a major 7th chord would be 1-3-5-7. A 9th chord would be 1-3-5-b7-9. All numbers from 7 on imply a flatted 7th. C7 has a Bb, not a B natural.

If you want a chord without the seventh, but with the 2nd degree of the scale you would write “C add 2” or “C add 9”. C9 implies the flat 7th, Cmaj9 implies the major 7th. Similarly, C6 (C-E-G-A) is different than C13 (C-E-G-Bb-A)

I think you have to develop a relationship to the scales (or keys) so that it’s natural for you to think of things this way. I’m sure that for melodies I know I could write out the numbers just as easily as I could write out the notes, either as letters or notes on a staff. In any key. I’m also sure I don’t think of them this way; each scale degree has a “personality” for me. This concept is what I remember.

Kind of like your cousin George - he can be referred to as your uncle’s kid, or by his name, but when you think of him you see his face and remember the times you went swimming with him.

Bottom line, whatever ways you can use to remember music will help your understanding. And the more ways,you have of looking at this, the deeper your understanding becomes.

 

[cappers]

Re reading some of the TTS I note the scales are numbered 1-8, C-C etc but do we continue the numbering above mid-C e.g. 8 9 10 11 12 etc.?

TIA

Edit Thanks @skeller047 posted as yours arrived!

Also thanks for correcting 2nd measure, must be tired! The 3rd is 2171 I think.

 

[wakyct]

Kind of like your cousin George - he can be referred to as your uncle’s kid, or by his name, but when you think of him you see his face and remember the times you went swimming with him.

Perfect analogy IMO.

In our ear training class the teacher said something similar -- it's OK to think of scales in degrees but really the goal is to think in sound, not numbers/letters.

@cappers, you will see numbering higher than 7 a lot when talking about chord extensions (e.g. #9) or practicing scales up to the 9 (2), etc.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Your example has mistakes in the second measure. It should be “33 43 21

I can’t even get my brain to engage about what these notes might be. Far easier to learn to read music, otherwise it reminds me a bit of midi commands and velocities 1 - 127

 

[cappers]

Perfect analogy IMO.

In our ear training class the teacher said something similar -- it's OK to think of scales in degrees but really the goal is to think in sound, not numbers/letters.

@cappers, you will see numbering higher than 7 a lot when talking about chord extensions (e.g. #9) or practicing scales up to the 9 (2), etc.

@wakyct Thanks, yes I see chord notation with 9ths etc.

Agree with trying to think in sound. The silly example above was the result of sounding notes and see what would sound 'good' next and attune my brain with that note. I played G G A F, recognised it but felt the F was off, tried E but worse so then thought it's between F&E so tried F#, yes! and so on.

Far easier to learn to read music,

Yes and I am learning to that; this was me exploring and trying to 'connect' with the sounds I make on the sax.

 

[Targa]

I can’t even get my brain to engage about what these notes might be. Far easier to learn to read music, otherwise it reminds me a bit of midi commands and velocities 1 - 127

I thought it should be 33 45 78.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Yes and I am learning to that; this was me exploring and trying to 'connect' with the sounds I make on the sax.

Which is great. All I can say is that eventually they all become one, in a sense - the sound (your ear) telling you what degree you’re playing over the harmony, and what interval you just played from the note before etc.

If you play enough, and think about it enough as you seem to be, you have a good chance of developing these skills

 

[Pete Effamy]

I thought it should be 33 45 78.

You sound a bit flat though. Ah, the ⅓ makes all the difference.

 

[wakyct]

Really the benefit of the numbers is if you play them in reverse you get a great recipe for pound cake.

 

[mizmar]

I don't think the degree numbering is a way to describe a tune, alternative to sheet music.

It's a tool to describe the functional aspect if notes. 1 - root, 5 - dominant etc.
C - 1 - root (in the key if C) wherever you find it in a piano.
If you want to head back to the root in the key of C play the 1 - a C - anywhere you like.
Then, when you transpose the number stays the same. Want to head back to the root in the key of G head for the 1 - a G.

So 5 1 - is saying dominant root.

It gets more interesting with the higher extensions and when you look at chords etc. But useful to get to know early.
The I chord is 1 3 5 In all keys.

 

[Tenor Viol]

The use of the numbers of the degree of the scale is handy for making transposing keys straightforward, but it's not a mechanism I've come across before. Using numbers for compound intervals e.g. '10' for the E a tenth above a C, or 12 fro the G as 12th above a C, is probably only going to be very confusing.

Degree numbers are usually used to describe the function of the note e.g. root/tonic, mediant, dominant, leading note etc.

 

[mizmar]

Just to add. The numbering does go on beyond 7 - particularly 9 and 11.
These are the same note as 2 and 4 But functionally different

 

[Pete Thomas]

What is the situation when going up an octave e.g. on C Maj scale: lowC - midC - high C, are all the Cs numbered 1 or are they 1, 8, 16?

Just to add. The numbering does go on beyond 7 - particularly 9 and 11.

9 11and 13 are only really used when adding chord extensions that go up in 3rds as @skeller047 mention. For melodies just think 1 - 7 but but it’s good to know that

9= 2
4= 11
6=13

Luckily that’s just 3 extra things to know. For now.

 

[cappers]

9 11and 13 are only really used when adding chord extensions that go up in 3rds as @skeller047 mention. For melodies just think 1 - 7 but but it’s good to know that

9= 2
4= 11
6=13

Luckily that’s just 3 extra things to know. For now.

Thank you very much, Pete et al. I understand now especially about the relationship to chords.

 

[mizmar]

...as @skeller047 mention

Oh yeah. I missed that.

 

[Ivan]

it reminds me a bit of midi commands and velocities 1 - 127

127?

That's fast

 

[Pete Effamy]

127?

That's fast

Midi velocity is not tempo related

 

[Colin the Bear]

The hardest thing about using numbers is remembering it's not maths and it doesn't add up.

 

[Ivan]

Midi velocity is not tempo related

😜