Tech/maintenance Saxophone Mythbusters

[jbtsax]

Please go back to my punishment assignment.
I am looking forward to seeing your measurements about the main body

You are a stern task master. You owe me for this one which is not that easy to do---especially when I have other things I want to do more. Maybe you can give me a (free) jazz lesson sometime. 😉

Don't ask me what these measurements mean, because I don't know. I was surprised they were as close as they were. It is uncanny that the length between the measurement points was exactly the same, but that is what they were measured by a long straight edge ruler.

 

[kevgermany]

I hate to say this, but I find a lot of his stuff very confusing, and I am somewhat knowledgeable on this topic.

His English is poor and he assumes you have his level of knowledge. And so you're trying all the time to find what he means. Reduced truncation really got me.

 

[kevgermany]

Don't ask me what these measurements mean, because I don't know. I was surprised they were as close as they were. It is uncanny that the length between the measurement points was exactly the same, but that is what they were measured by a long straight edge ruler.

He says somewhere that to make the comparisons work he converted them all to alto sizings.

 

[aldevis]

You are a stern task master. You owe me for this one which is not that easy to do---especially when I have other things I want to do more. Maybe you can give me a (free) jazz lesson sometime. 😉

Don't ask me what these measurements mean, because I don't know. I was surprised they were as close as they were. It is uncanny that the length between the measurement points was exactly the same, but that is what they were measured by a long straight edge ruler.

I seem to have some problems with the attachment.
Always ready to teach you some free jazz 😉

 

[Nick Wyver]

I seem to have some problems with the attachment.

It works ok for me.

 

[aldevis]

Seen them now

I was surprised they were as close as they were. It is uncanny that the length between the measurement points was exactly the same, but that is what they were measured by a long straight edge ruler.

Very surprising. It seems that they share the same design...

 

[jbtsax]

Seen them now

Very surprising. It seems that they share the same design...

They are quite close. I believe the real difference will be found in the size and placement of the toneholes. I no longer have the Mark VI since it went back to the customer, but when I overhaul my 10M and 400 I can take those measurements when the horns are stripped down. Don't hold your breath, it may take a while. 🙂

 

[aldevis]

They are quite close. I believe the real difference will be found in the size and placement of the toneholes. I no longer have the Mark VI since it went back to the customer, but when I overhaul my 10M and 400 I can take those measurements when the horns are stripped down. Don't hold your breath, it may take a while. 🙂

We can take our time to bust the "big bore" myth...

 

[Dibbs]

They are quite close. I believe the real difference will be found in the size and placement of the toneholes. I no longer have the Mark VI since it went back to the customer, but when I overhaul my 10M and 400 I can take those measurements when the horns are stripped down. Don't hold your breath, it may take a while. 🙂

I wouldn't call them all that close if you compare the ranges of other woodwinds. A narrow bore clarinet like the Buffet R13 has a 14.65 mm bore the B&H 1010, considered extremely wide, is 15.2 mm. There is certainly a big difference between the two instruments. The 1010 goes about twice a loud for a start.

Here's Theobald Boehm on flute design:

"Since the dimensions most suitable for the formation of the fundamental tones correspond closely to those of theory, a flute of these dimensions, the length of the air column being 606 millimeters and the diameter 20 millimeters, [because of the larger diameter, the length of tube required is somewhat less than that given on page 35 for a tube 19 millimeters in diameter] would certainly be perfect as regards a pure, full tone and ease of sounding through a compass of about two octaves. But in order to extend the compass to three full octaves as now required [in flute music] I decided for the sake of freedom in the upper tones, to reduce the diameter to 19 millimeters, notwithstanding that this injured to some extent the beauty of the tones of the first two octaves."

These dimensional differences are around the same order of magnitude as for these saxes.

 

[aldevis]

These dimensional differences are around the same order of magnitude as for these saxes.

Not sure.
I feel that a conical bore the size of a tenor sax is less sensitive.
The main problem, for me, is where to determine a bore size/cone in a saxophone.
Clarinets are much easier to measure.
Also clarinets have a dramatic difference when they have reversed cones (Selmer S9), are cilinders (1010, Dynamic H or older Selmers) or start messing up with undercutting (R13)

 

[Reed Warbler]

Which cedar wood is better for jazz?

Walton Cedar.

 

[kevgermany]

Walton Cedar.

Had to look that one up!

 

[jonnie]

Ligatures dramatically change tone. Hmm, not for me, at least. I have used metal, fabric and plastic ligs, and even on occasion in an emergency string and sticky tape. I've never noticed any difference in tone.

Ehhh - disagree big time

I have a ligature I picked up in France, I don't use it at the moment. It came with three different brass inserts to push the reed against the mouthpiece, one with dot contacts in each corner, one with rails and one plain and curved to match the reed. A fair difference in tone across the three and that's not even changing the entire ligature merely the pressure plate. I cannot remember now which one I favoured but I do remember that every time I experimented with changing it I always settled back on the same choice until eventually I moved onto a different ligature which I still use now. I am not sure I would use the words "dramatically change tone" but it was enough for me to have a strong preference.

 

[Jeanette]

@jonnie it would be great if you would post clips of recordings with the three different plates and your current setup to see if the listener can hear the difference.

You might find this thread interesting 🙂

Jx

 

[Guenne]

I am not sure I would use the words "dramatically change tone" but it was enough for me to have a strong preference.

Very little (but present) difference in sound, but huge difference in what one perceives using the different plates I would say 🙂

Cheers, Guenne

 

[jonnie]

@jonnie it would be great if you would post clips of recordings with the three different plates and your current setup to see if the listener can hear the difference.

You might find this thread interesting 🙂

Jx

Hi Jeanette, sounds a reasonable idea although it will on the back burner as right now I am using all of my playing opportunities working on "sentimental mood" for a past monthly ballad (soundclips) I have been somewhat lazy for the past few years noodling and improvising but not being very disciplined so the vigors of a ballad and peer review have sharpened my attitude considerably and so my time is being poured into this for the time being.

Right now I would not want to take the reed off the mouthpiece as I am measuring my progress in shaping up using a recorder etc.

I am not convinced it would be a particularly scientific experiment, I find small but significant tonal changes occur when the same reed is taken from the mouthpiece and then put back in a slightly different position but I will do it when it is convenient.

I can see Guenne's point. Using a decent recording set up for the first time is showing me that some perceived changes are real and some are in my head or are real but only discernable by the player - this is why I am currently 'hammering' my recording setup for hours at a time its such a valuable learning tool.

However if the player doesn't like the tone they listen to when they play a particular setup but the listener loves the tone and does not think it has changed anyway then we have an awkward situation don't we 😵

 

[Nick Wyver]

some are in my head or are real but only discernable by the player

How do you tell the difference?

 

[Nick Wyver]

Right now I would not want to take the reed off the mouthpiece

You don't mean that literally do you?

 

[jonnie]

How do you tell the difference?

Because the recordings don't agree.
In the head has double meaning here - we can be talking of perception or resonance, I mean both.

 

[jonnie]

You don't mean that literally do you?

Yes I do.

I am not alone there are players who will not touch a reed once in place and performing well.