Beginner Relevance of Chords to Sax playing

[RSPINDY]

The thread on the 2,5,1 progression triggered this, but it's something that's been bothering me for a while. Time to ask for help. Have been looking at Pete's instructional stuff and in other places, but I can't find anything like this.

I am struggling a bit here. There are lots of examples around of chords and what they are (and the names aren't much more than a jumbled mess at the moment) - but how are they relevant to an instrument that can't play them?

For instance 12 bar blues theory pages star off with a set of chord changes. And this is great for guitar, keyboards etc., but I can't see it for sax.

I guess I'm missing the bridge between chords and playing single notes in a tune.

Would really appreciate a noddy level explanation and an example or two based on a common music which I can study with the example, so that I can download the sheet music and maybe listen to it on Youtube as well.

Many thanks.

Chord symbols serve several purposes.

1.) They help to define the underlying harmony as established by the bass instrument -- usually the root (the name of the chord), but sometimes the 3rd, 5th, or 7th (of a dominant 7 chord). Bass players usually have little need for all of the 9, 11, or 13 possibilities except for passing tones.

2.) They tell the keyboard and guitar the harmonies -- major or minor, etc. -- sometimes the notes they may or may not use (the type of 9, 11, 13)

3.) For melody instruments (monophonic non-bass instruments), they represent the scale possibilities. These possibilities become more limited depending on the types of 7, 9, 11, 13 indicated.

This last usage is what the question refers to.

If we look at a simple triad (3 notes -- 1, 3, and 5 of the scale):

A C major Triad represents the required notes C, E, and G, thus any scale used with this chord must, in the beginning understanding, contain those notes without variation (no C#, or Eb or Gb or G#). Furthermore, these are the notes that you want to mostly feature in strong rhythmic positions, particularly as "goal notes" the point of the point of that harmony.

A major triad most often represents a major scale: in (C):
C D E F G A B C.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
(The bold notes cannot be altered, the not bold ones can.)

In Blues or older music that is not indicating 7th chords, The 7th Step will usually be b7 (Bb here) giving us:

C D E F G A Bb C.

(This is a stylistic thing that you just get used to. Fortunately more modern music indicates 7ths and other required notes).

This works for the other forms of triads.
(The #'s and b's are alterations to the major scale)

Minor (1, b3, 5) in C is C Eb G and therefore the scale requires these notes.
Augmented ( 1, 3, #5) in C -- C E G#
Diminished (1 b3 b5) in C -- C Eb Gb

 

[kevgermany]

Yes


NO, not yet. This will be in what I'm currently working on. With playalongs


Actually no. The word Dominant doesn't mean the note should dominate. I think that in this type of exercise where you try to get the chord notes on the beat, it's not really relevant whether beats 1 & 3 are stronger or 2 & 4 are, or which chord note goes best with which beat. As it happens, in much (most?) jazz, blues and rock, I think beats 2 & 4 are usually stronger.

I just chose this as its so simple to go up the major scale to the 5th note and back, and see how the chord tones go with the on beats.

Thanks. More food for thought!

 

[kevgermany]

Chord symbols serve several purposes.

1.) They help to define the underlying harmony as established by the bass instrument -- usually the root (the name of the chord), but sometimes the 3rd, 5th, or 7th (of a dominant 7 chord). Bass players usually have little need for all of the 9, 11, or 13 possibilities except for passing tones.

2.) They tell the keyboard and guitar the harmonies -- major or minor, etc. -- sometimes the notes they may or may not use (the type of 9, 11, 13)

3.) For melody instruments (monophonic non-bass instruments), they represent the scale possibilities. These possibilities become more limited depending on the types of 7, 9, 11, 13 indicated.

This last usage is what the question refers to.

If we look at a simple triad (3 notes -- 1, 3, and 5 of the scale):

A C major Triad represents the required notes C, E, and G, thus any scale used with this chord must, in the beginning understanding, contain those notes without variation (no C#, or Eb or Gb or G#). Furthermore, these are the notes that you want to mostly feature in strong rhythmic positions, particularly as "goal notes" the point of the point of that harmony.

A major triad most often represents a major scale: in (C):
C D E F G A B C.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
(The bold notes cannot be altered, the not bold ones can.)

In Blues or older music that is not indicating 7th chords, The 7th Step will usually be b7 (Bb here) giving us:

C D E F G A Bb C.

(This is a stylistic thing that you just get used to. Fortunately more modern music indicates 7ths and other required notes).

This works for the other forms of triads.
(The #'s and b's are alterations to the major scale)

Minor (1, b3, 5) in C is C Eb G and therefore the scale requires these notes.
Augmented ( 1, 3, #5) in C -- C E G#
Diminished (1 b3 b5) in C -- C Eb Gb

Even more to assimilate, thanks!

 

[RSPINDY]

The thread on the 2,5,1 progression triggered this, but it's something that's been bothering me for a while. Time to ask for help. Have been looking at Pete's instructional stuff and in other places, but I can't find anything like this.

I am struggling a bit here. There are lots of examples around of chords and what they are (and the names aren't much more than a jumbled mess at the moment) - but how are they relevant to an instrument that can't play them?

For instance 12 bar blues theory pages star off with a set of chord changes. And this is great for guitar, keyboards etc., but I can't see it for sax.

I guess I'm missing the bridge between chords and playing single notes in a tune.

Would really appreciate a noddy level explanation and an example or two based on a common music which I can study with the example, so that I can download the sheet music and maybe listen to it on Youtube as well.

Many thanks.

Chord symbols serve several purposes.

1.) They help to define the underlying harmony as established by the bass instrument -- usually the root (the name of the chord), but sometimes the 3rd, 5th, or 7th (of a dominant 7 chord). Bass players usually have little need for all of the 9, 11, or 13 possibilities except for passing tones.

2.) They tell the keyboard and guitar the harmonies -- major or minor, etc. -- sometimes the notes they may or may not use (the type of 9, 11, 13)

3.) For melody instruments (monophonic non-bass instruments), they represent the scale possibilities. These possibilities become more limited depending on the types of 7, 9, 11, 13 indicated.

This last usage is what the question refers to.

If we look at a simple triad (3 notes -- 1, 3, and 5 of the scale):

A C major Triad represents the required notes C, E, and G, thus any scale used with this chord must, in the beginning understanding, contain those notes without variation (no C#, or Eb or Gb or G#). Furthermore, these are the notes that you want to mostly feature in strong rhythmic positions, particularly as "goal notes" the point of the point of that harmony.

A major triad most often represents a major scale: in (C):
C D E F G A B C.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
(The bold notes cannot be altered, the not bold ones can.)

In Blues or older music that is not indicating 7th chords, The 7th Step will usually be b7 (Bb here) giving us:

C D E F G A Bb C.

(This is a stylistic thing that you just get used to. Fortunately more modern music indicates 7ths and other required notes).

This works for the other forms of triads.
(The #'s and b's are alterations to the major scale)

Minor (1, b3, 5) in C is C Eb G and therefore the scale requires these notes.
Augmented ( 1, 3, #5) in C -- C E G#
Diminished (1 b3 b5) in C -- C Eb Gb

!!! OOPS!!! Hit wrong button so this may be posted twice.

As the chord symbols indicate more notes (b9, 9, #9, 11, #11, 13, b5, #5) The more specific the scale. A Cmajor7 # 11 requires C E G B (D implied) and F#. The A has nowhere to go so the scale is:

C D E F# G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

Ok. you wonder about the 9, 11, and 13. Subtract 7 and they are scale step 2 4 and 6.

If you start looking into this scale relationship to chord symbols, particularly the fact that the primary chord tones -- 1 3 5 -- need to be featured, this may help.

 

[Pauline]

Pete,
I, too, am struggling to understand chords, improvisation etc and I've found your document really helpful.

I especially like the keyboard diagrams as I've just bought a cheap little keyboard to help my ear training and it was so useful to be able to pick out the chords from the diagrams and play them.
Although I'm not a piano player I can work out which note is which but somehow the diagrams have more impact.

Keep on with the book, I'm sure it will be a big hit!

 

[kevgermany]

Chord symbols serve several purposes.

1.) They help to define the underlying harmony as established by the bass instrument -- usually the root (the name of the chord), but sometimes the 3rd, 5th, or 7th (of a dominant 7 chord). Bass players usually have little need for all of the 9, 11, or 13 possibilities except for passing tones.

2.) They tell the keyboard and guitar the harmonies -- major or minor, etc. -- sometimes the notes they may or may not use (the type of 9, 11, 13)

3.) For melody instruments (monophonic non-bass instruments), they represent the scale possibilities. These possibilities become more limited depending on the types of 7, 9, 11, 13 indicated.

This last usage is what the question refers to.

If we look at a simple triad (3 notes -- 1, 3, and 5 of the scale):

A C major Triad represents the required notes C, E, and G, thus any scale used with this chord must, in the beginning understanding, contain those notes without variation (no C#, or Eb or Gb or G#). Furthermore, these are the notes that you want to mostly feature in strong rhythmic positions, particularly as "goal notes" the point of the point of that harmony.

A major triad most often represents a major scale: in (C):
C D E F G A B C.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
(The bold notes cannot be altered, the not bold ones can.)

In Blues or older music that is not indicating 7th chords, The 7th Step will usually be b7 (Bb here) giving us:

C D E F G A Bb C.

(This is a stylistic thing that you just get used to. Fortunately more modern music indicates 7ths and other required notes).

This works for the other forms of triads.
(The #'s and b's are alterations to the major scale)

Minor (1, b3, 5) in C is C Eb G and therefore the scale requires these notes.
Augmented ( 1, 3, #5) in C -- C E G#
Diminished (1 b3 b5) in C -- C Eb Gb

!!! OOPS!!! Hit wrong button so this may be posted twice.

As the chord symbols indicate more notes (b9, 9, #9, 11, #11, 13, b5, #5) The more specific the scale. A Cmajor7 # 11 requires C E G B (D implied) and F#. The A has nowhere to go so the scale is:

C D E F# G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

Ok. you wonder about the 9, 11, and 13. Subtract 7 and they are scale step 2 4 and 6.

If you start looking into this scale relationship to chord symbols, particularly the fact that the primary chord tones -- 1 3 5 -- need to be featured, this may help.

Gimme some time, please!

 

[ukwoody]

Sorry to resurect this thread (actually thats rather appropriate as you will see ) but can I take this right back to the very basics of the question.

I belong to a church. A lot of Christian music is guitar orientated and musically, chord based and written. It is often very hard to find full sheet music for many of the modern songs sung today in church.
If we look at that really old kids gospel chorus "Go tell it on the mountain" (I only chose this as it was easy to find free on the net) The music is written thus...

E B E
Go tell it on the mountain, over the hills and everywhere
C#m #m B
Go tell it on the mountain that Jesus Christ is born

E
While shepherds kept their watching
B E
O'er silent flocks that night
C#m
Behold throughout the heavens
F# B 7
There shone a holy light

So, if you were presented with the above example, is there any direct correlation between those chords and something the sax can play to "join in" with the Worship musicians without having to resort to pure improv?

I ask as someone at the very very basic stages of learning music and the Alto sax .

sorry if this is a numpty question, but dont ask - dont learn!

thanks all
woody

 

[ukwoody]

ahh, sorry for some reason the Tabbing is not staying in the correct place. Here is a link to the original web page. http://www.christianguitar.org/psong/353

cheers
woody

 

[SteveK]

Pete
Being able to improvise around the II,V7 I with E- (E, G, B, D) and then A7 (A C# E G) and finally D∆ (D F# A C#) is what I find hard - I just can't remember it that well. As for improvising 'on the fly'

Where I get lost (or found - I'm not sure which) is that, for example, this 2-5-1 is in the key of D major. So if you play any of the notes of D over them it should sound fine although not necessarily exciting. If the bass player and pianist are emphasising the chord change does the saxophone really need to?
Maybe this is a question more of style - Parker's era was based on this but as the 50's moved on this style faded???? and the need to emphasise the chord changes wasn't there any more???

Questions, questions, questions flooding into the minds concerned young people of today (quote - Frank Zappa) I think he wrote it for me when I was younger.
Steve

 

[RSPINDY]

Sorry to resurect this thread (actually thats rather appropriate as you will see ) but can I take this right back to the very basics of the question.

I belong to a church. A lot of Christian music is guitar orientated and musically, chord based and written. It is often very hard to find full sheet music for many of the modern songs sung today in church.
If we look at that really old kids gospel chorus "Go tell it on the mountain" (I only chose this as it was easy to find free on the net) The music is written thus...

E B E
Go tell it on the mountain, over the hills and everywhere
C#m F#m B
Go tell it on the mountain that Jesus Christ is born

E
While shepherds kept their watching
B E
O'er silent flocks that night
C#m
Behold throughout the heavens
F# B 7
There shone a holy light

So, if you were presented with the above example, is there any direct correlation between those chords and something the sax can play to "join in" with the Worship musicians without having to resort to pure improv?

I ask as someone at the very very basic stages of learning music and the Alto sax .

sorry if this is a numpty question, but dont ask - dont learn!

thanks all
woody

So, if you were presented with the above example, is there any direct correlation between those chords and something the sax can play to "join in" with the Worship musicians without having to resort to pure improv?

First, you are either playing from pre-written music or you are improvising. I'm not sure what directions "impure" improv would take us ;}

Now, your first step is to know the melody with its correct rhythm. (You can always play just the melody at some times). You will need to know the concert key (the actual pitch) in which the group will be playing and transpose the melody and chords to the pitch required by your saxophone accordingly. Thus, if they are playing in E major, on a Bb saxophone you will be playing up a major 2nd (2 half-steps or one whole-step), in this case F# Major (you can change it to Gb major if it is easier for you); on an Eb saxophone you will be playing up a major 6th (9 half-steps), in this case C# major (you can change to Db major.)

Next, you will need to know the notes in each of the triads and 7ths used.

Now, find the places where the melody uses longer notes (often at phrase endings or at end of a two measure group.) Among other things, these notes will generally be part of the harmony of the moment.

In the above song, it occurs on "mountain", "(ev'ry)where", "mountain", and "born". At these points, you can add a fill based on the notes of the chord (for now I would just use the notes of the triad -- thus B7 just use the B triad part (B D# F#) because the 7th has certain "restrictions" on its motion. The final note of the fill should end on beat 1 of the next measure and be a member of the next chord.

So on "mountain" you could play In eigth notes starting on and of 3 -- G# B E D# (D# is a member of the B7 chord). You can try such patterns as B E G# F# or E G# B B. You can go up or down, though you might want to contrast direction -- The song works down melodically so the fill going up provides a contrast -- but that is not always necessary.

Rhythmically, these fills help to create movement in contrast to a static point in the melody. But it is vitally important that your rhythm is in sync with the tempo and beat of the piece.

The members of the chord in affect at the time are your target notes. The non-chord members are targeting these notes. Get comfortable with creating fills with just the chord members then it will be easier to expand to other techniques that use the non-chord members of the scales.

Scott

 

[ukwoody]

Gosh! As a beginner I think I understand what you've very kindly said, I wil go away and look at some of the aspects of Triads, etc to gain a better understanding of what is required. I think I now need to start learning some basic music "theory" so I can relate to it more.
Thank you very much for that very detailed answer, it's much appreciated (even if my head is swimming, LOL)

woody