Tech/maintenance Question, my saxophone is cracked

[JayeNM]

Finally, back to www.yamaha24x7.com , US consumers link, parts search, I plug in THAT part #

.......aaaaaannnnnnd -

IN STOCK in Los Angeles, $24 plus ship....and I buy it. I would say I have 95% confidence it will fit the 34, if not they accept returns.

 

[JayeNM]

Of course, you can also forego all of that....and just have a tech do this:

If I were asked to repair this clamp I wouldn't bother with trying to (silver) solder the crack - I'd just soft-solder a patch over it. Plenty strong enough for the job in hand, and a much cheaper/quicker job.

😎
if you don't mind a small piece of brass sheet patch on the backside of your tension ring.....

🙂

IF I were reselling...I'd buy the new part and have it installed . If it were my horn and I was just gonna play her, I might just have the soft solder repair done. Just keep in mind if the latter, the used market does NOT like patches on horn or neck, so there might be slight depreciation in resale value.

 

[turf3]

Frankly, for something like thirty bucks for the part, and some cost of labor, I'd just replace the part. The biggest part of the labor to repair this is mostly going to be in the disassembly and reassembly and re-regulating the bell keys. The labor to do the patching and cleaning up of the old part is going to be more than the labor to take off the old part, throw it in the bin, and install the new part. I don't think it'd be a good idea to solder a patch over the crack in place; seems to me the heat wouldn't be good for the sealant.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Frankly, for something like thirty bucks for the part, and some cost of labor, I'd just replace the part. The biggest part of the labor to repair this is mostly going to be in the disassembly and reassembly and re-regulating the bell keys. The labor to do the patching and cleaning up of the old part is going to be more than the labor to take off the old part, throw it in the bin, and install the new part. I don't think it'd be a good idea to solder a patch over the crack in place; seems to me the heat wouldn't be good for the sealant.

A patch-up job would cost about £30 - so there's not much in it. There should be no need to muck about with the bell keys if the underyling glue joint is sound and the bell hasn't taken a knock (in which case it's a job that will need to be done whatever).
And no-one but a complete moron would try to solder a patch on with the clamp in place.

For resale purposes a new clamp is definitely the way to go.

 

[turf3]

A patch-up job would cost about £30 - so there's not much in it. There should be no need to muck about with the bell keys if the underyling glue joint is sound and the bell hasn't taken a knock (in which case it's a job that will need to be done whatever).
And no-one but a complete moron would try to solder a patch on with the clamp in place.

For resale purposes a new clamp is definitely the way to go.

But this is a one piece clamp, so you've got to take the bell-bow assy off to repair the clamp. Well, I suppose you could see if you could loosen the clamp and slip it up high enough to be able to solder it without messing anything else up. Assuming you've got to take the bell-bow off to get the clamp off and solder it, by the time you've got it all apart you might as well put a new clamp. Since they appear to be available. None of my horns has parts available unless you happen to find a junker somewhere.

 

[Dr G]

A patch-up job would cost about £30 - so there's not much in it. There should be no need to muck about with the bell keys if the underyling glue joint is sound and the bell hasn't taken a knock (in which case it's a job that will need to be done whatever).
And no-one but a complete moron would try to solder a patch on with the clamp in place.

For resale purposes a new clamp is definitely the way to go.

Given that this is a 1-piece clamp, wouldn't you have to remove the bell to solder on the patch?

I realize that some solder jobs can be done in tight quarters with appropriate heat shields and sinks. Is that the path you would take (assuming you're not a complete moron)?

Edit: I see that turf3 has the same question as me - still curious as to how it can be done. I used to be fascinated by magic tricks and sleight-of-hand as well.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Given that this is a 1-piece clamp, wouldn't you have to remove the bell to solder on the patch?

I realize that some solder jobs can be done in tight quarters with appropriate heat shields and sinks. Is that the path you would take (assuming you're not a complete moron)?

Edit: I see that turf3 has the same question as me - still curious as to how it can be done. I used to be fascinated by magic tricks and sleight-of-hand as well.

Nope.
Unscrew the clamp and remove. Clean appropriate surfaces - make and fit patch.
Then - open the clamp until it fits over the joint. The rookie mistake here is to just grab each end of the clamp and yank it apart. The trick is to bend it by degrees all the way around. Spread the load, gently, so to speak. Get it to about 3/4 of the way there - elasticity will do the rest.
If you feel you have to make an allowance for any stretch (I never have), shave half a mill off the unthreaded section of the clamp bars.
It's really not magic.

 

[Dr G]

Nope.
Unscrew the clamp and remove. Clean appropriate surfaces - make and fit patch.
Then - open the clamp until it fits over the joint. The rookie mistake here is to just grab each end of the clamp and yank it apart. The trick is to bend it by degrees all the way around. Spread the load, gently, so to speak. Get it to about 3/4 of the way there - elasticity will do the rest.
If you feel you have to make an allowance for any stretch (I never have), shave half a mill off the unthreaded section of the clamp bars.
It's really not magic.

Got it. Thanks.

Another magic trick totally destroyed by the bare and simple facts. Harrumph.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Got it. Thanks.

Another magic trick totally destroyed by the bare and simple facts. Harrumph.

Aye - as is all too often the case in this trade. Sorry about that.

 

[Dr G]

Aye - as is all too often the case in this trade. Sorry about that.

Your comment about how to carefully bend it around its circumference does leave me to consider that there exists ample opportunity to do it wrong. The good news is that we seldom hear about that happening.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Your comment about how to carefully bend it around its circumference does leave me to consider that there exists ample opportunity to do it wrong. The good news is that we seldom hear about that happening.

I've seen the results all too often. Thing is, no repairer is going to admit they screwed the job up...and very, very few players are going to be clued up to spot that their bottom bow clamp isn't now entirely circular.
I've often wondered if this was the reason that Selmer started using a two-piece clamp.

 

[mizmar]

I'd just sling a jubilee clip around the join.

Edit: get a Sharpie and write "KGUmusic" on it and tell buyers it enhances low C and D tones.

Sorted.

When gaffer tap just isn't enough

 

[Dr G]

I've seen the results all too often. Thing is, no repairer is going to admit they screwed the job up...and very, very few players are going to be clued up to spot that their bottom bow clamp isn't now entirely circular.
I've often wondered if this was the reason that Selmer started using a two-piece clamp.

Although it may seem a more complicated part, the two-piece clamp reduces the "skill of craft" element of assembly and may be quicker to install. It also allow for a stiffer part (whether that is desirable or not, it no longer matters). Bonus points awarded for design/production integration.

 

[Targa]

Nope.
Unscrew the clamp and remove. Clean appropriate surfaces - make and fit patch.
Then - open the clamp until it fits over the joint. The rookie mistake here is to just grab each end of the clamp and yank it apart. The trick is to bend it by degrees all the way around. Spread the load, gently, so to speak. Get it to about 3/4 of the way there - elasticity will do the rest.
If you feel you have to make an allowance for any stretch (I never have), shave half a mill off the unthreaded section of the clamp bars.
It's really not magic.

That's what I was asking in #32, was that yanking apart likely to have happened and then the tightening caused the crack.

 

[Stephen Howard]

That's what I was asking in #32, was that yanking apart likely to have happened and then the tightening caused the crack.

I guess it's possible, but someone would have had to bend the clamp considerably - and what tends to happen is that rather than break, the clamp merely ends up distorted.
But it remains as feasible an answer as a flaw in the alloy.

 

[turf3]

Yeah, I don't much like the "flaw in the metal" theory - that strip's probably made from rolled brass strip. Japanese manufacturers typically control incoming raw materials well.

I don't much like the "bent till cracked" theory much, either, as it seems unlikely that enough bending to cause that crack to start, wouldn't leave behind some deformation that whoever did it didn't straighten up. The part looks like its circular form on either side of the crack is as normal.

I also don't like the "bad seam" theory because it seems so unlikely they'd put a seam there.

Three theories and I don't think any of us is real excited about any of them.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Yeah, I don't much like the "flaw in the metal" theory - that strip's probably made from rolled brass strip. Japanese manufacturers typically control incoming raw materials well.

I don't much like the "bent till cracked" theory much, either, as it seems unlikely that enough bending to cause that crack to start, wouldn't leave behind some deformation that whoever did it didn't straighten up. The part looks like its circular form on either side of the crack is as normal.

I also don't like the "bad seam" theory because it seems so unlikely they'd put a seam there.

Three theories and I don't think any of us is real excited about any of them.

I've got another tenuous theory...

I'm wondering if the horn's had some dentwork done under the Eb tonehole. This is a very common job - that key guard often takes a whack. If a dent ball was placed under the top side of the tone hole and given a whack, the resulting upward force *might* have been enough to form a crack at the bottom of the clamp ring.
It's still a bit sketchy, but potentially has more legs than the other theories?

 

[Colin the Bear]

Might it be an Irish horn?




🎤
I'll get me coat.

 

[Ivan]

I was wondering about the same thing.
BTW, interesting spelling of verklempt, I haven't heard that word in about 4 decades but we called it verklemmt.

Or...

They are two different words

 

[PigSquealer]

Just to add to this conversation. Here’s what the same clamp looks like on a SBA 80. The link joins the two halves. Then screws together as most do.