Intonation Playing: Tone, Intonation, Breathing?

[Crossleyharlow1]

I posted this a few days ago, probably on the wrong forum, so apologies if you’ve seen it elsewhere, but it’s a bit more relevant on this topic than the one I posted it on previously::
I did a note by note chromatic check on my clarinets and saxes with a newly acquired good quality electronic tuner last week and was quite shocked to find how fluctuating the intonation was note to note when applying a steady normal embouchure, on highly respected quality instruments. I found that it would be virtually impossible to play anything at all completely in tune. Sure, you can lip each and every note into tune one at a time, but not in continuous play. Mid-range, all the instruments were pretty well spot on, within 10% either way, but when you venture lower or higher, then the intonation starts to flatten or sharpen. So it’s simply a matter of trusting the ear and lip, which are the best judges, provided you have a good ear. Were it possible to see what the tuner is telling you as you play through a passage, I’m pretty sure you would find that you were technically out of tune most of the time, which is a sobering thought. But it doesn’t matter a jot if it sounds right to the player and, perhaps more importantly, the hearer. Moving the mouthpiece in or out to be in tune on concert A will also affect the intonation of the instrument across the range, as players trying to adjust to the often chronically out of tune pianos in local venues will testify to.

 

[Niimus]

I have trouble with middle C# on two Selmers. The note sounds flat even when the tuner says it's not.

Not only sax - other woodwind instruments have issues with c# - flute, recorder to name a couple..

 

[Wade Cornell]

I posted this a few days ago, probably on the wrong forum, so apologies if you’ve seen it elsewhere, but it’s a bit more relevant on this topic than the one I posted it on previously::
I did a note by note chromatic check on my clarinets and saxes with a newly acquired good quality electronic tuner last week and was quite shocked to find how fluctuating the intonation was note to note when applying a steady normal embouchure, on highly respected quality instruments. I found that it would be virtually impossible to play anything at all completely in tune. Sure, you can lip each and every note into tune one at a time, but not in continuous play. Mid-range, all the instruments were pretty well spot on, within 10% either way, but when you venture lower or higher, then the intonation starts to flatten or sharpen. So it’s simply a matter of trusting the ear and lip, which are the best judges, provided you have a good ear. Were it possible to see what the tuner is telling you as you play through a passage, I’m pretty sure you would find that you were technically out of tune most of the time, which is a sobering thought. But it doesn’t matter a jot if it sounds right to the player and, perhaps more importantly, the hearer. Moving the mouthpiece in or out to be in tune on concert A will also affect the intonation of the instrument across the range, as players trying to adjust to the often chronically out of tune pianos in local venues will testify to.

Without being too rude I'd say you haven't read the previous contributions to this thread as the answers are there. I'll repeat my own previous answer as it may help. First and foremost you've got to understand that NO SAX is a PIANO. They are ALL IMPERFECT INSTRUMENTS. You make it play in tune...or not as the case may be. It takes years of work.

"The question is intonation, not tuning...different issues. Intonation issues are different for different saxes, and the mouthpiece can also make a difference.

I play sopranino quite a lot, which is a nightmare for intonation. You literally have to adjust your embouchure, mouth and body to play each note in tune. That also means that you need to HEAR the note you're going to play. The trick is to develop the hearing/playing into an automatic response. Most know that to play lower notes well you need to drop your jaw. So you think about this for a while and practice. After some time it becomes automatic. Same is true for the rest of the instrument. The sax is an imperfect instrument. The higher the pitched instrument the more difficult intonation becomes.

Here's an example: For years I played an Yanagisawa sopranino. The designers there seem to think that it's "natural" for players to tighten their embouchure when playing high notes, so that's how they place the tone holes. When I switched to other sopraninos I played way sharp from A2 and up. I had to retrain my body to play with a more relaxed embouchure. I could hear I was sharp, but the automatic side of playing was strongly ingrained. After a few months it was OK.

All those who said do NOT use a tuner are right in my opinion. You can't be using a tuner all the time when playing as they don't respond that fast and your concentration is in the wrong place. It's about listening and making adjustments for your instrument with your body and making those automatic. When/if it's not possible to play certain notes in tune it's time to see the tech, or consider trying a different instrument."

I'd only add to the above by being more specific in that you need to have a good ear and hear what's in or out of tune. You will never be able to do this if continually relying on a tuner. Train your ear, and train your body.

 

[Neffmusic]

Hi,
there's more than one reason not to look at the tuner.
You are playing with your ears, and not with your eyes.

If had many students in my teaching career, and i had not one who wasn't able to hear even slightly unprecise intonation playing to drones.

-Lesson 15: Pedals and Drones – Matt Otto

www.mattotto.org

You may also want to listen to an excerpt of an interview with a former student of Joe Allard's and Joe Viola's.
They start by talking about Michael Brecker. Listen to what he says about one note out of tune.

Dropbox - Error - Simplify your life

www.dropbox.com

Cheers, Guenne

Is the interview with Demsey or is Demsey the interviewer? What is this from?

 

[Neffmusic]

Having come back to the sax one thing that is painful is my very poor intonation. So I've just dug out my copy of ‘Perfecting Intonation’ by David Beecroft, and that prompted me to look at his website and it looks like he’s now made the book and audio tracks avalible for free.

Intonation is Blending – David Beecroft Music

PDF: https://www.beecroft.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Perfecting-Intonation-Book.pdf

This is from the page above:

Some of you will be here because we’ve had a discussion about intonation and the difference between Equal Temperament and Just Intonation / Overtone Series. To cut to the chase, the following is the difference between the two systems. A negative number represents the amount flatter the equal tempered interval be adjusted to become a perfectly in tune interval. A positive number for the amount sharper the note is adjusted to be a perfect interval:

• perfect 5th 3/2 -> +2 cents to become 3/2 ratio
• perfect 4th -> -2 cents to become 4/3 ratio
• major 3rd -> -14 cents to become 5/4 ratio
• minor 3rd -> +16 cents to become 6/5 ratio
• major 6th -> -16 cents to become 5/3 ratio
• minor 6th -> +14 cents to become 8/5 ratio
• major 2nd -> +4 cents to become 9/8 ratio
• flat 7th -> -4cents to become 16/9 ratio
• major 7th -> -12 cents to become 15/8 ratio
• flat 2nd -> +12 cents to become 16/15 ratio
• tritone, diminished 5th -> – 17.5 cents to become 10/7 ratio

Although I have known about this and do experience it when playing with other horn players, my question is how come we don't hear keyboards and guitars as out of tune. They are tuned with a tuner. Is it because we listen to them so much that we are used to the tuning not being perfect.

Also, when you couple this with playing with a band how do you navigate this? Say the keyboard player is playing a C minor chord and the trumpet and sax are playing concert C and Eb? According to this chart the Eb should be +16 cents sharp to be in tune with the C but you are playing with a keyboard so doesn't this whole chart go out the window?

 

[Pete Effamy]

This is from the page above:

Some of you will be here because we’ve had a discussion about intonation and the difference between Equal Temperament and Just Intonation / Overtone Series. To cut to the chase, the following is the difference between the two systems. A negative number represents the amount flatter the equal tempered interval be adjusted to become a perfectly in tune interval. A positive number for the amount sharper the note is adjusted to be a perfect interval:

• perfect 5th 3/2 -> +2 cents to become 3/2 ratio
• perfect 4th -> -2 cents to become 4/3 ratio
• major 3rd -> -14 cents to become 5/4 ratio
• minor 3rd -> +16 cents to become 6/5 ratio
• major 6th -> -16 cents to become 5/3 ratio
• minor 6th -> +14 cents to become 8/5 ratio
• major 2nd -> +4 cents to become 9/8 ratio
• flat 7th -> -4cents to become 16/9 ratio
• major 7th -> -12 cents to become 15/8 ratio
• flat 2nd -> +12 cents to become 16/15 ratio
• tritone, diminished 5th -> – 17.5 cents to become 10/7 ratio

Although I have known about this and do experience it when playing with other horn players, my question is how come we don't hear keyboards and guitars as out of tune. They are tuned with a tuner. Is it because we listen to them so much that we are used to the tuning not being perfect.

Also, when you couple this with playing with a band how do you navigate this? Say the keyboard player is playing a C minor chord and the trumpet and sax are playing concert C and Eb? According to this chart the Eb should be +16 cents sharp to be in tune with the C but you are playing with a keyboard so doesn't this whole chart go out the window?

I have posed this question on here before. What do most of us play to? Pianos, keyboards etc etc

 

[Neffmusic]

I have posed this question on here before. What do most of us play to? Pianos, keyboards etc etc

I would say that 100% of my gigs in the past are with pianos, guitars, bass, etc...... I will do stuff with another horn by itself or sax quartet for lessons or recitals but those aren't gigs usually. I wonder if playing with these equal temperament instrument can mess with you because if you do that 99% of the time and then play with lone wind instruments then you will have a harder time or even think the other person is out of tune when they might not be...........

 

[Pete Effamy]

I would say that 100% of my gigs in the past are with pianos, guitars, bass, etc...... I will do stuff with another horn by itself or sax quartet for lessons or recitals but those aren't gigs usually. I wonder if playing with these equal temperament instrument can mess with you because if you do that 99% of the time and then play with lone wind instruments then you will have a harder time or even think the other person is out of tune when they might not be...........

Me too regarding piano/keyboard. With brass you get the “difference tone” or “third note” which can be a guide to tuning.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Here's a little test. These soundclips alto solo starts with a held note. Which of these takes sounds most in tune?

(Not a trick question, yes, they are different

 

[6441]

(i was wrong)
C is my death key. That must have thrown me off.

 

[Nick Wyver]

My cloth ears reckon the second one.

 

[Neffmusic]

The second one sounds more in tune to me and locked in. The first one sounds sharp but it doesn't sound bad to me. The first one sounds more alive and energetic to me actually.

 

[Neffmusic]

(i was wrong)

How do you know you were wrong?

 

[6441]

How do you know you were wrong?

I used a tuner to check and I was wrong 🙂

 

[Neffmusic]

I used a tuner to check and I was wrong 🙂

Wow! Really? I listened to it like 5 times and every time the first sounded sharper to me.........

 

[6441]

Wow! Really? I listened to it like 5 times and every time the first sounded sharper to me.........

I listened several times, to me the first sounded sharp, but <spoiler>














































the second note is















































- 2x10

 

[Guenne]

Is the interview with Demsey or is Demsey the interviewer? What is this from?

Hi Steve,
the interview is with Demsey, and I think Doron Orenstein is the interviewer.
I think I got it from a collection of interviews and exercises he has published over the years called "Bulletproof musician".

Cheers, Guenne

 

[Neffmusic]

Now I'm super curious. When I hear the first one, I would guess a bit sharp. But when I hear the second one I don't think flat or sharp which makes me think it is more in tune. Interesting.........

 

[Veggie Dave]

Now I'm worried because I thought the first sounded okay but the second was a smidge flat.

And now going back to listen again I don't know what I think...

 

[Pete Thomas]

Maybe I should repost those clips with a poll. I also find it confusing to know which is most in tune.