Intonation Playing: Tone, Intonation, Breathing?

[6441]

Besides long tones, what tricks are there for improving intonation? (Here's a chance to add the prefix 'Intonation' to this section, thanks.)
Many say don't look at a tuner but two important teachers have said "look at the tuner" and "don't look at the tuner" in lessons. If you don't look, how do you know you're in tune?
What I find amazing is that certain notes are much harder to play in tune than others. For example, on my alto, high (octave key) G# is harder to grab in tune than G. The uppers side keys D and above can be played in tune but they're weak and unstable whereas if I use more air, they're sharp but strong. I feel I am improving, but at the same time if I let things go to be natural and not forced, I'm sharp again in the upper range.

If I don't look at the tuner, I won't know and everything is wonderful again

 

[Admitone]

I have trouble with middle C# on two Selmers. The note sounds flat even when the tuner says it's not.

 

[6441]

I have trouble with middle C# on two Selmers. The note sounds flat even when the tuner says it's not.

I think most saxes have the C# issue! I use the alternate fingering more and more.

 

[Veggie Dave]

My limited experience suggests that this is far, far less of a problem with 'pro' horns. When I jumped from a 'student' horn to a 'pro' one it took me a couple of months to really get used to the differences.

Eventually I found that I didn't have to worry about intonation at all. Or, more precisely, I no longer had to work to keep the notes true. I also found I didn't have to put anywhere near as much lung/embouchure effort into playing the instrument, which not only also improved intonation, the mouthpiece slowly moved farther and farther onto the crook, too.

There's a huge amount of truth to the cliché 'it's not what you play, it's how you play it' but boy does having an instrument that doesn't get in the way make a massive difference.

 

[Guenne]

Hi,
there's more than one reason not to look at the tuner.
You are playing with your ears, and not with your eyes.

If had many students in my teaching career, and i had not one who wasn't able to hear even slightly unprecise intonation playing to drones.

-Lesson 15: Pedals and Drones – Matt Otto

www.mattotto.org

You may also want to listen to an excerpt of an interview with a former student of Joe Allard's and Joe Viola's.
They start by talking about Michael Brecker. Listen to what he says about one note out of tune.

Dropbox - Error - Simplify your life

www.dropbox.com

Cheers, Guenne

 

[GCinCT]

I play my long tones with a drone. Always. I also do an intonation exercise I learned from my online teacher. Also with a drone.

Tuners have their use, but I agree, this is a job for your ears. I also find it easier to play in tune by using my ears rather than looking at a tuner. It’s like if I wanted to show you a particular shade of blue. I could describe it, but if I showed you a picture, you would know what it looked like instantly because your eyes are best suited to the task. For intonation, your ears work best.

 

[Guenne]

For intonation, your ears work best.

Yes,
and you must also consider a "correct" C is not alway the same pitch.
It depends whether it's the 5th of F or the 3rd of Ab.
And whether or not you're playing in a beer tent with an out of tune Flugelhorn.

Cheers, Guenne

 

[Admitone]

My limited experience suggests that this is far, far less of a problem with 'pro' horns.

My Selmer Mark VI and Series II are worse with C# than my Yamaha 62.

 

[Pete Effamy]

you must also consider a "correct" C is not alway the same pitch.
It depends whether it's the 5th of F or the 3rd of Ab.

Yes and no.
Yes - playing with a string quartet.
No - playing alongside any instruments using fixed pitch/tempered pitch.

 

[Guenne]

No - playing alongside any instruments using fixed pitch/tempered pitch.

Flugelhorn? 🙂

 

[Pete Effamy]

Besides long tones, what tricks are there for improving intonation? (Here's a chance to add the prefix 'Intonation' to this section, thanks.)
Many say don't look at a tuner but two important teachers have said "look at the tuner" and "don't look at the tuner" in lessons. If you don't look, how do you know you're in tune?
What I find amazing is that certain notes are much harder to play in tune than others. For example, on my alto, high (octave key) G# is harder to grab in tune than G. The uppers side keys D and above can be played in tune but they're weak and unstable whereas if I use more air, they're sharp but strong. I feel I am improving, but at the same time if I let things go to be natural and not forced, I'm sharp again in the upper range.

If I don't look at the tuner, I won't know and everything is wonderful again

I think that the air should remain fairly constant, and any adjustment is done by "voicing" - tongue position/oral cavity.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Flugelhorn? 🙂

It's quite common isn't it!

 

[Pete Effamy]

this is far, far less of a problem with 'pro' horns

Probably, or hopefully correct yes. Though not always. I find that most horns have their 'duff' spots that you have to bear in mind whilst you're new to one another, then it all becomes rather automatic (the adjustment). My Mk6 alto is pretty sharp on the E in the top space treble clef (written, not concert). It posed a real problem the first time I took it to a recording session.

 

[BigMartin]

Many say don't look at a tuner but two important teachers have said "look at the tuner" and "don't look at the tuner" in lessons. If you don't look, how do you know you're in tune?

After a lifetime of playing wind instruments (on and off), I've had to admit to myself that if I can't hear whether I'm in tune, I'm not. Unfortunately, I often fuind myself playing in situations where neither is any one else, in which case I have to find the best compromise I can. A tuner is useless in those situations. When playing with a backing track, it's much easier for me to hear if I'm in tune or not (although even that took me an embarassingly long time to learn). But I can't always tell which way I'm off. More work to be done there, I think. Very occasionally I'll resort to the tuner in that situation, but I try hard to do it by ear first because my ear clearly needs the training.

 

[6441]

For me and what I'm doing, I refer to using a tuner without other sounds or music. I'm measuring the natural tendency with a fixed amount of air and a steady embouchure. For some reason, G# just seems to always want to be sharp. While C# is flat, I'm used to it and either correct it it use the alternative fingering.

 

[Wade Cornell]

The question is intonation, not tuning...different issues. Intonation issues are different for different saxes, and the mouthpiece can also make a difference.

I play sopranino quite a lot, which is a nightmare for intonation. You literally have to adjust your embouchure, mouth and body to play each note in tune. That also means that you need to HEAR the note you're going to play. The trick is to develop the hearing/playing into an automatic response. Most know that to play lower notes well you need to drop your jaw. So you think about this for a while and practice. after some time it becomes automatic. Same is true for the rest of the instrument. The sax is an imperfect instrument. The higher the pitched instrument the more difficult intonation becomes.

Here's an example: For years I played an Yanagisawa sopranino. The designers there seem to think that it's "natural" for players to tighten their embouchure when playing high notes, so that's how they places the tone holes. When I switched to other sopraninos I played way sharp from A2 and up. I had to retrain my body to play with a more relaxed embouchure. I could hear I was sharp, but the automatic side of playing was strongly ingrained. After a few months it was OK.

All those who said do NOT use a tuner are right in my opinion. You can't be using a tuner all the time when playing as they don't respond that fast and your concentration is in the wrong place. It's about making adjustments for your instrument with your body and making those automatic. When/if it's not possible to play certain notes in tune it's time to see the tech, or consider trying a different instrument.

 

[jbtsax]

When I was teaching beginning band students I came up with a process that consistently achieved good results. There were 4 steps:

1. Listen to the pitch
2. Sing the pitch
3. Blow the pitch on an airstream
4. Play the pitch on the instrument

When tone production skills became more consistent I had them regularly practice "bending" the pitch up and down using the method appropriate to the instrument they were playing.

I never found a student who could not hear "beats" when unisons were not in tune with each other. If a student couldn't tell if their pitch was flat or sharp they bent the pitch either up or down. If the beats began to go faster, they were going the wrong direction. If the beats began to slow down, they were going the right direction. When the beats went away they had matched the other pitch.

 

[s.mundi]

I periodically test and rectify my ugly intonation.
1. long tones through the chromatic scale (listen to the pitch)
2. sing (try to match the pitch - limited ability)
3. play (match pitch)
I keep the tuner out of direct sight and only take a glance to make sure my ears are matching the tuner's response.

 

[Halfers]

I downloaded the attached drone exercise from the wonderful 'Jazz Duets' Youtube channel. A Guided Musical Meditation, delivered in the Channel's inimitable style. There is a link to further drone downloads that cost a little, but I think it is worth it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsoAy1bg9JQ

 

[Nick Wyver]

My limited experience suggests that this is far, far less of a problem with 'pro' horns.

Unless it has Selmer written on it.