Playing Playing tenor like an alto and vice-versa

[Ivan]

Sheets of sound

I take it Miles and John reached a difference of opinion...

 

[Pete Effamy]

I take it Miles and John reached a difference of opinion...

I’ve no idea. He wanted him in his band and obviously knew how he played.

 

[LostCircuits]

Here is a pretty good recap of the MO of Miles and his interactions with the band members:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01N81v6y7M&lc=UgxthwtZbmny63A-LSd4AaABAg.AH7RHJubL7ZAH8INmedvva

 

[ghostler]

Yes! I recently turned 71 and although in good health without any underlying conditions (as far as I know.....) I realise that given the ageing process I'll probably have only 10 or so years of playing, which is about the same amount of time it'll take to get any good!

I'm the same as you, turned 71 also. Let's make the next 10 years the best!

 

[Pete Effamy]

I think it can only really be attributed to range. Tenor - playing consistently high, alto - low. It can’t be type of sound as that comes and goes with fashion and applies to all horns - West Coast, Bop, Funk, Smooth - for every type of tone on one sax you’ll find the equivalent on the others.

It can’t be amount of notes either. Anyone has played with as much dexterity when/if they can.

As for tenor having more solos in a big band - that’s probably out of date too. It’s shared around a lot more now, using all the family for variety, including soprano or flute section leader.

If it did mean or is meant to comment on sound then it’s completely out of date.

Desmond/Sanborn
Hawkins/Brecker
Mulligan/Adams

…and the thousands of others.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I have read here and there comments along the lines of 'alto and tenor are different beasts so should be played differently', 'you can't play tenor like an alto'

Where have you seen that? (Apart from the Miles David quote which may be hearsay and over half a century ago)

I did a search and all I found was this thread!

 

[mizmar]

Good to know the SEO is working...
.... I guess

 

[cappers]

Where have you seen that? (Apart from the Miles David quote which may be hearsay and over half a century ago)

I did a search and all I found was this thread!

It was a comment on here somewhere, probably on one of the ‘alto or tenor’ threads. Might have been on SOTW……I can’t trawl through them to find the original quote and don’t want to name names!
It has been an interesting thread however.

 

[ghostler]

I did search on the string, "play tenor saxophone like alto". Yandex gave me:

1. https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/tenor-like-alto.106427/
2. https://cafesaxophone.com/threads/playing-tenor-like-an-alto-and-vice-versa.36773/page-2 (this thread)
3. https://groovewiz.com/switching-from-alto-to-tenor-saxophone-easy-or-hard/
4. View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0b-lh5DRck
5. https://www.8notes.com/f/43_155393.asp
6. https://www.wikihow.com/Play-the-Tenor-Saxophone

This thread in Café was the 2nd hit. (I prefer Yandex as its weighting is similar to the older search engines of the 1990's.) A good one I thought was in #1 above, post #23:

By zorroperro · Feb 27, 2009:

It is all in the harmonics.​

​

Being the tenor a bigger horn, it has more harmonics. That's the reason that some players find the alto sweater [sweeter]. Also the tenor has larger range. The larger the horn the larger the range. Altissimo on tenor is very common to be on the upper notes.​

​

Alto can pretty mucho [much] do it. It can have an incredible range and with some setups can generate a lot of harmonics in its tone.​

​

Also you never know how an alto is going to sound. Never. The difference a Jumbo Java does over an alto... well is incredible...​

​

Many will find the tenor more useful for Rock and Roll, that's for the harmonics. But alto can do it.​

​

For blues you can use either. Same as jazz.​

​

Soul and funk I think alto has the edge.​

​

Any way blow your dreams...​

This is just one opinion, but I liked his explanation, especially his ending "punchline".

Based on various comments read in the Café and other sax forums and blogs, the impression I get is that although there is a "preference" for a more "breathy", mellow timbre for the tenor especially in ballads and slower tempo jazz, blues, etc.; short of a band conductor or club owner, etc. wanting a specific tone, you can play the tenor in any manner you want, as long as ....

.... people like it and you sound and feel good about it.

 

[LostCircuits]

I think it can only really be attributed to range. Tenor - playing consistently high, alto - low. It can’t be type of sound as that comes and goes with fashion and applies to all horns - West Coast, Bop, Funk, Smooth - for every type of tone on one sax you’ll find the equivalent on the others.

It can’t be amount of notes either. Anyone has played with as much dexterity when/if they can.

As for tenor having more solos in a big band - that’s probably out of date too. It’s shared around a lot more now, using all the family for variety, including soprano or flute section leader.

If it did mean or is meant to comment on sound then it’s completely out of date.

Desmond/Sanborn
Hawkins/Brecker
Mulligan/Adams

…and the thousands of others.

I think you pretty much nailed it.
There was probably a time where there were "alto" and "tenor" players, especially when you discount the altissimo range and just stick with the two registers and there were alto and tenor songs - there still are but it is not a hard classification. Like Careless Whisper ...

And there are the schools, which create some "brackets" for tenor or alto but it's an artificial classification. So, range is really the one criterium that makes most sense.

And I play my tenor consistently low simply because I love that specific timbre. Unless I want to play some high notes... And the cat bit its tail again....

 

[turf3]

Here is a pretty good recap of the MO of Miles and his interactions with the band members:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01N81v6y7M&lc=UgxthwtZbmny63A-LSd4AaABAg.AH7RHJubL7ZAH8INmedvva

Not gonna watch an hour long video for one or two minutes of reminiscences.

But one should consider whether Miles in 1957 talking to Coltrane might have been a different person with a different approach to Miles talking to young band members in 1980 or 1985 or whenever.

 

[LostCircuits]

Not gonna watch an hour long video for one or two minutes of reminiscences.

But one should consider whether Miles in 1957 talking to Coltrane might have been a different person with a different approach to Miles talking to young band members in 1980 or 1985 or whenever.

The Miles references are only a few minutes and since you recently complained about boredom ...

But I concur, there is no "one" Miles, a lot of situational reactions that were then amalgamated by the little drawer guys to create a timeless stereotype which borders on nonsense.

 

[Pete Thomas]

So, range is really the one criterium that makes most sense.

But actually makes least sense to me in regard to actually playing differently on each.

 

[LostCircuits]

But actually makes least sense to me in regard to actually playing differently on each.

Yes and that's exactly summing up the paradox of a fallacy (my personal opinion). It's almost akin to the observation that the tiniest female saxohonists always play the biggest baritones. Not true but an obvious illusion.

Playing differently on each.... is that really a thing? I've been listening a lot to Gary Foster lately, on tenor and on alto and he sounds like Gary Foster no matter what.

I've been listening to Michael Brecker on flute and tenor, guess what?

I look at Dave Sanborn vs. Stan Getz, yes they are different but is it the tenor vs. alto (pun intended).

I know I sound different on alto than on tenor but I cringe when I listen to myself regardless of what instrument.

Point here being that it is easy to throw out something that sounds or looks obvious based on a few anecdotal points but would any of this pass the test of a really rigorous analysis? I personally doubt it but once you have that notion in your head, you hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest.

 

[mizmar]

Point here being that it is easy to throw out something that sounds or looks obvious based on a few anecdotal points but would any of this pass the test of a really rigorous analysis?

That just about sums up modern politics.

Reported!
😃

 

[Dr G]

I did search on the string, "play tenor saxophone like alto". Yandex gave me:

1. https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/tenor-like-alto.106427/
2. https://cafesaxophone.com/threads/playing-tenor-like-an-alto-and-vice-versa.36773/page-2 (this thread)
3. https://groovewiz.com/switching-from-alto-to-tenor-saxophone-easy-or-hard/
4. View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0b-lh5DRck
5. https://www.8notes.com/f/43_155393.asp
6. https://www.wikihow.com/Play-the-Tenor-Saxophone

This thread in Café was the 2nd hit. (I prefer Yandex as its weighting is similar to the older search engines of the 1990's.) A good one I thought was in #1 above, post #23:

By zorroperro · Feb 27, 2009:

It is all in the harmonics.​

​

Being the tenor a bigger horn, it has more harmonics. That's the reason that some players find the alto sweater [sweeter]. Also the tenor has larger range. The larger the horn the larger the range. Altissimo on tenor is very common to be on the upper notes.​

​

Alto can pretty mucho [much] do it. It can have an incredible range and with some setups can generate a lot of harmonics in its tone.​

​

Also you never know how an alto is going to sound. Never. The difference a Jumbo Java does over an alto... well is incredible...​

​

Many will find the tenor more useful for Rock and Roll, that's for the harmonics. But alto can do it.​

​

For blues you can use either. Same as jazz.​

​

Soul and funk I think alto has the edge.​

​

Any way blow your dreams...​

This is just one opinion, but I liked his explanation, especially his ending "punchline".

Based on various comments read in the Café and other sax forums and blogs, the impression I get is that although there is a "preference" for a more "breathy", mellow timbre for the tenor especially in ballads and slower tempo jazz, blues, etc.; short of a band conductor or club owner, etc. wanting a specific tone, you can play the tenor in any manner you want, as long as ....

.... people like it and you sound and feel good about it.

Do you realize that the article you cite is written by an alto sax player?

Summary (paraphrased): Tenor may be the better choice, but an alto can do it too.

 

[ghostler]

Point here being that it is easy to throw out something that sounds or looks obvious based on a few anecdotal points but would any of this pass the test of a really rigorous analysis?

That just about sums up modern politics. Reported! 😃

Of course there is politics in playing. How else does one get paid and another gig? (If you know what I mean.) 😉

 

[CliveMA]

Posit an imaginary world where Adolphe Sax never created the Alto. You only have Tenor and Soprano. Has anything been lost given it all can be played on Tenor/Soprano?

 

[LostCircuits]

Posit an imaginary world where Adolphe Sax never created the Alto. You only have Tenor and Soprano. Has anything been lost given it all can be played on Tenor/Soprano?

You are correct, sir!

But it is still a fallacy, at least of sorts, just like you need to be able to play every song in all 12 keys.

The key is yes, there is merit to that as a technical exercise but are you able to play the tune really well? Or great?

Ron Coelho comes to mind again: There is no excuse for a good tone, you need a great tone. And the exact same goes for playing tunes.

I fell into that trap myself, trying to play in awkward keys and register breaks until one day I realized that it must have been military drill sergeant doubling as band director who came up with this dogma but because it is so cool to show off, it became the gospel. And everybody forgot to aspire to greatness.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Posit an imaginary world where Adolphe Sax never created the Alto. You only have Tenor and Soprano. Has anything been lost given it all can be played on Tenor/Soprano?

They’re completely different…