Squeeking when playing tenor

abztolgw

New Member
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UK
I have played Alto Saxophone since school (quite a few years (decades) ago!). I recently bought a tenor saxophone to get more dep opportunities and it's worked. I'm struggling with squeeking with the 'jazzier' mouthpiece. Both my saxes are Conn Selmers - PAS380V unlacquered. I'm classically trained at school, but have (amateur) played in big bands for past 20 years, with a start to improvise over last 12 months.



Alto sax mouthpiece set-up: Meyer tip opening 7M, reed 2.5M Roberto, rovener light ligature, for big band, improv (also have selmer c* for classical/more melodic playing)

Happy with sound and volume. Love the reeds which are the most reliable I've played with consistently good sound.

Lower lip slightly over bottom teeth, but not too tight



Tenor sax mouthpiece set-up:

works but not happy with 'thin' sound: rousseau classic NC4, reed 2.5M Roberto, rovener light ligature - no squeaking, but weaker sound.

better sound but can't eliminate squeaking: Gottsu sepia tone tip opening 7, reed 2.5M roberto, rovener light ligature

Really trying to loosen lower lip but not sure if I should be removing lower lip completely from teeth?



The Gottsu mouthpiece is the one that I was recommended in the shop for big band playing- lovely, local shop where I trust his advice. I bought the Gottsu mouthpiece when I bought the sax, and struggled with it initially, hence me getting the rousseau.



I've been back in to the shop where I bought the Gottsu and he said probably old/uneven reed and reminded me I should remove the reed and gave me a case to store and dry it out after use. He checked over my sax too. The squeeking has gone down in terms of frequency- so it was definitely partly a dodgy reed (very red faced about that!) but I'm still squeeking, and it's not just over the same high or low notes, it seems to be all over the range, less in the very lowest e to bflat, but occasionally then too.



Looking for advice on embouchure with the Gottsu, and anything else I can do. Or do I sort the reed issue with the Rousseau and accept that I can't get that brasher jazz/big band sound on my tenor (that I do with my alto)?



Thank you
 
Are you tuning to A 440? (B on tenor, F# on alto). Or Bb? (C and G, tenor and alto.) Because if you tune to B or C, you may tune flat, which leads to biting (er, too much embouchure pressure), which leads to squeaking.

This is because B (or C) is a short pipe note, and moving the mouthpiece will affect it more than longer pipe notes (like F#). So if you are a little bit tight when you tune, you might tune flat.

I recommend tuning the horn to itself by tuning B2 (left index finger, no octave key) to the same pitch as overblown B1 (low B). Just play B2 and then finger low B without stopping themair. If the pitch goes up when you play the long fingering you need to push in.

Also make sure you take in enough mouthpiece. Your lower lip should be at or just behind the break point of the facing curve on your mouthpiece.

The reason most alto players struggle with tenor is that a) too tight embouchure and b) not taking in enough mouthpiece. Both of these can lead to squeaks.
 
I suggest moving down to a softer reed. Make sure it’s moist, 20 seconds under the tap. Agree with @skeller047 that you’re probably biting. He probably knows more about saxes than half of us here. If both our suggestions don’t work try alternate placements of the reed and ligature on the table.
 
I would hazard a guess that the majority of people on the forum play with too much jaw pressure. It’s probable that the rest of us did before we learned not to also.

The key to not “biting” (usual terminology for using too much pressure, thereby “pinching or squeezing the note/tone somewhat) is learning to hear the difference between a note that is somewhat strangled/muffled, and a tone that is open, with the reed vibrating freely.

Therefore, both tone (playing “in the middle of the note) and tuning are led by the ear - not a tuner, or the one tuning note (A440) that you tune to in an ensemble etc). Being in tune with that note could be so with an embouchure not suited to playing with the best (open) sound or one which will play the rest of the instrument in tune. @skeller047 explains why above.

This “hearing” develops over time (probably a long time) and will only come through listening to good players and comparing timbre.
 
It might just be the mouthpiece. They're not all perfect.

I acquired a mouthpiece that I liked the sound of. It was, however, somewhat prone to squeaking. I sent it to Ed Pillinger to see if he could do anything about it. He did. It no longer squeaks.
 
Make sure you get a ligature that fit your mouthpiece. A L 3ML should fit, or 3ML ..... . The design of the mouthpice is à la Link? it's important that ridge of the mouthpice is free and fit the top of the ligature (screw and pin). Not many mm that is free. Just curious; did they sell this mouthpiece wo ligature?

It's hard to say why you are "squeaking". Reed, ligature, wrong mouthpiece, embouchure. When I started to play Martin Committee saxes I played a big chamber mouthpiece with wide tip opening (mainstream jazz piece). I was squeking from the bow and down. A big chamber mouthpiece is not working so well on a Martin Committee.
 
I would hazard a guess that the majority of people on the forum play with too much jaw pressure. It’s probable that the rest of us did before we learned not to also.
You could be right.
I can't speak for the rest, but it is certainly true for me. I am working on letting go my bad habits (like biting and squeezing my throat too much) for a few months now.

I got a new mouthpiece last summer (Philtone Onyx 7*) that lets the overtones sound a bit more than my previous mouthpieces (Otto Link and Vandoren V16). As a result I was squeaking all over the place with my usual Rigotti reeds.
I already concluded that I had to drop in reed strength, and following advice from this forum I also tried out some different brands. I settled on d'Addario Select Jazz 2H.

Last week I started to get some fresh reeds in working order to replace the ones I have been rotating for the last 4 months. One of those reeds was squeaking quite badly, and also sounded very stuffy. I tested it on both sides (left side and right side) and it was very stuffy on the left side. I worked on it with my reedGeek, and now it plays a lot better.
....
Conclusion: In my case I am the primary cause of the squeaking and other problems I am facing. But I have found that some material (mouthpiece, reeds, ....) can have a big effect on those problems. I see it as a magnifying glass that lets you see the problems you are having more clearly.

And changing gear can be part of the problem or part of the solution.
But for me the key lies in diligent practice and focus on the right things (in my case, relaxing the throat and less biting)
 
Lots of great answers above.
I would try different reeds first, some mouthpieces play better with different cuts of reed.
Have you tried asking another player to play your setup and see if they have squeaking issue with it.
Some players have problems with certain mouthpieces, I had lots of issues with Lawton pieces never found the answer so changed the mouthpiece and all was fine.
If all fails try synthetic reeds they are very good to stop squeaking.
 
The thing about using less jaw (biting) pressure, is that you’re going to use your face and lip muscles more, which is initially harder, as they won’t last very long.
 
I had problems with all my tenor reeds to play on a Rico Royal Graftonite C5 mouthpiece. (My apologies, somewhere else I stated it was a C7, just checked my tenor case.)

I set it aside. One day for kicks, I tried a soft baritone sax reed on it. Now, the mouthpiece played. This is the first mouthpiece that I had this problem. Apparently the length of the machining on the table opening was set for the longer baritone reed.

I purchased that mouthpiece about 8 or 9 years ago. I don't know if this problem has been corrected with the later mouthpieces. This I would call a manufacturing defect, rare, but it does happen. Fortunately at the time, I paid less than $20 US for that mouthpiece.

The suggestion by @jazzdoh to let someone else play the sax is a good one. This helps to eliminate or confirm it is the player or his set-up (reed, mouthpiece) where the problem lays.
 
Not only, but also… having an embouchure that is too tight doesn’t always create squeaks and problems, it does however create tight sound.

So, problem or not, I urge you to explore whether your embouchure is too tight. Just as you can tune your ear to a tone that is too tight, you’ll hear when the embouchure drops too far and, a bit like Star Trek, it loses structural integrity.
 
Good point, @Pete Effamy , I forgot to mention the player along with his mouthpiece/reed combo.
Thanks, it wasn’t as a reply to your post, only the overwhelming posts about the problem being gear (which of course it might well be).

I just didn’t want the “biting” issue to be brushed aside, as when a player truly overcomes this issue, it really unlocks the sound.

As Ray Smith demonstrates on the video I originally posted, a tight embouchure is often not producing a tone that isn’t nice (I’ve phrased that sentence with too many negatives!) - indeed, it can be very pretty, but it will be far smaller and less mature.
 
The thing about using less jaw (biting) pressure, is that you’re going to use your face and lip muscles more, which is initially harder, as they won’t last very long.
This is something I'e been consciously working on for a few months now. More pressure from the facial muscles and less from the jaw. I couldn't play a tune for the first few weeks (didn't have the endurance in the muscles) but I knew a better sound was in there somewhere. Exercises away from the horn can really help build the facial muscles. Everything works so much better now---tone, dynamics, articulation, intonation, vibrato (less dependence on jaw pressure means the jaw is freer to move and adjust pitch). A pleasant side-effect is that when I hacve a few days where I can't find time to practise (which happens all too often lately), I can keep up the exercises and don't fell like I'm starting from scratch when I come back.
 

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