BOTM Oct 2016 Satin Doll

[Alice]

I have been practicing this all month and I have recorded a version in GB which has at least 8 tracks (so that I can pick the best). I have the feel of the rhythm and i've learned the first part but not the second part yet. I haven't had a sax lesson now since August ( 🙁 ) and i'm sure my teacher would put me on the right track immediately if he heard me play.

 

[Colin the Bear]

If you play it through a couple of hundred times you'll start to get a feel for it.

 

[Tiberius]

what is it that is confusing you?

It's that it...the notes and anti notes change. there's a key which says that C is sharp and F is sharp...but after a couple of bars C is not sharp. the first time C is not sharp, B is flat, then C is not sharp again, but this time B is natural. I can play it, and I can hear it, but I don't really understand why C# becomes an anti note when it's in the key signature. And where does Bb come from? that's not in the key signature either, but B is wrong, even though that is in the key signature.

 

[Alice]

But it can't be "wrong" if it's pleasing to the ear 🙂 I love the tune and I like the way it subtly shifts and changes, it's music.

 

[Targa]

It's that it...the notes and anti notes change. there's a key which says that C is sharp and F is sharp...but after a couple of bars C is not sharp. the first time C is not sharp, B is flat, then C is not sharp again, but this time B is natural. I can play it, and I can hear it, but I don't really understand why C# becomes an anti note when it's in the key signature. And where does Bb come from? that's not in the key signature either, but B is wrong, even though that is in the key signature.

Why analyse it, why not just play it?

 

[U CAN CALL ME AL]

What is an anti note? I've got an aunty Bee, and she sounds great for her age. I agree with @Alice & @Targa don't analyse it, if it sounds good it is good, just play it. I did google the term anti note and got a load of old cobblers.

 

[U CAN CALL ME AL]

Seriously the moderaters may wish to move this reply but I sincerely believe that musicians analytical quest for the non existant magic theoretical bullet what to play over what has almost killed off exciting jazz improvisation. Formulaic theoretically correct improvs have lead to boring jazz music lacking imagination other than the 100 mph finger flailing occassional gimmicky altissimo screaming effect rubbish. Could we please return to connecting with our listeners. To some extent musicians must take some responsibility being too much up their own a***s and concerned only with their own perceived image.

 

[kevgermany]

@U CAN CALL ME AL I'm not deleting it, but...

1 Please remember that many members have English as a second or third language. And try to formulate English musical terms from their own language.

2 We're all at different stages of the musical journey.

3 A discussion on formulaic vs ear improvisation would be great - but in a different thread.

 

[kevgermany]

anti notes

By anti-notes, do you mean notes with a flat/sharp/natural sign in front of them that contradicts or over-rides the key signature?

These are called accidentals. They're used to temporarily change key, or in the case of some minor keys, which one you're playing in. Also by composers to get a particular sound at that point.

 

[kevgermany]

Why analyse it, why not just play it?

I think @Tiberius is trying to understand it, just playing is one approach, but understanding gives a different insight into the music.

 

[nigeld]

@Tiberius question is extremely apt and insightful in my opinion.

The piece is harmonically more complex that many others, and a beginner who wants to improvise on it will benefit if they understand the harmony. I had a go and got completely befuddled. Maybe I still am, but here is what I think is happening.

The quick answer is that it modulates - the key of the piece changes without the key signature changing.

So if we take the tenor version, the first two bars of the melody are in D major, but then it moves up a tone to E major for two bars, then a different key for one bar (I can't work out which, I think it's A), then Ab for a bar (hence the Bb and C natural) and then back to D.

What that means is that diatonic improvisation (staying in the scale of D) won't work in this piece.

In addition, the piece starts on the 6th note of the scale (B) which is unusual. The underlying chords are II V, so we might expect it to resolve to I (II V I progression) but instead it modulates up a tone.

Edit: Changed bar 6 key to Ab

 

[kevgermany]

I think the essence can be derived by listening to the piece, hearing what's played. The main motif is played, repeated higher - the key change. This happens quite a few times.

Reading the sheet music while you listen to the piece shows the key changes, both from the motif repeating and the chords moving.

For improv, the notes in each chord marked on the score are a good starting point. But, as pointed out earlier, it needs to sound right, not formulaic.

 

[U CAN CALL ME AL]

@kevgermany ,@nigeld I have re-read and subsequently edited my reply, no offence was intended. Many beginning improvisers are made to feel that they must approach playing in an analytical way or they are somehow inferior jazzers not having been 'enlightened' in the mystique of the genre.
I am coming off the back of a successive number of live performances by well known artists, no names mentioned, but the entire impro was spent staring at a chord sheet and churning out arpeggiated boring scalar rubbish, no rhythm, tension release and certainly no melody in the playing.

 

[kevgermany]

I agree, much improved us formulaic, but it's a start. For the big names, it's disappointing. When I saw the Gary Burton stuff I walked away. Horrid, unmusical, but many will disagree.

 

[brianr]

It's that it...the notes and anti notes change. there's a key which says that C is sharp and F is sharp...but after a couple of bars C is not sharp. the first time C is not sharp, B is flat, then C is not sharp again, but this time B is natural. I can play it, and I can hear it, but I don't really understand why C# becomes an anti note when it's in the key signature. And where does Bb come from? that's not in the key signature either, but B is wrong, even though that is in the key signature.

Thanks for your reply.

ok, we have a better idea now of what you mean.

firstly, in using the term "anti notes" I think you mean accidentals. these are notes in a melody which arent in the key signature.
these will be found in all kinds of music, not just in Jazz standards such as Satin Doll.

they will usually be found when a composer wants to go into another key temporarily, before coming back to the original key.

having a key signature ( such as the D major for tenor in Satin Doll ) is the composers way of telling us as players what key it is in. It doesnt mean that every note in the tune MUST be/remain in that key.
the composer can go wherever he wants ( its his/her tune after all !! ) So to cater for that need, he/she may need to write an accidental.
ie he is thinking in D major but suddenly his artistic voice tells him that he really wants to hear a C natural.
Does he fight this urge for a c natural.... No.... he really wants it. so, he writes it.

This means that if as players, we want to be true to his composition, we have to follow his wishes and go where he tells us.
there is no choice. If we want to play it correctly, we HAVE to play his notes.

So, we learn to understand and recognise accidentals. We read it and play it as he / she wrote.

hence the need to just accept the written notes in front of us.
This can be done without understanding the theory behind the internal /temporary key changes. But we must develop an understanding of the "Why" in relation to accidentals.

However, in relation to Jazz/improvisation, a little understanding of this key changing idea can help, for certain.

a simple explanation would be that most western music doesnt stay in one key for its entire form.

whatever the original key centre, it would be the norm for it to temporarily go to a different key.
the correct term for this would be to say that it MODULATED to a new key.

the exception to this structure would be modal music , which tends to stay on a particular key for longer periods, without modulation. an example of this would be the tune SO WHAT, from Kind of Blue, which stays in a Dorian minor key centre for extended periods.

anyway, thats a different topic/answer, and we wont go there.

So, as an improvisor trying to play over the chord changes to satin doll, there a few options.
1) stay/play in the key of D major for 8 bars
2) try to follow the changes in key centre as they occur and play the "correct notes "

the 2nd option is harder to do well, and in fact in many instances it can lead to the improvisation being stilted and somewhat technical correct, but lacking.
The 1st option can be looser, more natural , but can sometimes have note clashes etc which sound not so good.
As improvisers develop/get better, they tend to go more towards the 2nd option.

So, for example over the 1st 2 bars you can play in D major, the next two bars in E major.
you talk about Bb and C natural. You must mean in relation to bar 6. Here it goes into Ab major for only one bar.
I told you this can get tricky !!, before moving back to D major.
In this Ab bar, you can be accurate and try to play some brain bursting complicated stuff in semi quavers for 4 beats. or you could play a C natural for 4 beats. it would be "correct".
As an improvisor, the choice is yours.

As an improvisor, much of the secret is to recognise where the key centre/harmony "IS' at any given time and having the technical stuff in your brain and under your fingers to enable you to negotiate these temporary key changes.
My main practice focus is in trying to improve in this area. Its hard !!

 

[Tiberius]

Ok...I try to stay on topic these threads...but I guess it's kinda relevant to the tune and it is the end of the month neway. By anti-notes, I meant those notes that Les Dawson played...notes that 'most' people would say are 'wrong'. I assume there's a proper musical term for such a note? I tend to think of music as notes (that I can play), and anti-notes (that I shouldn't play).

As Brian and a few others have pointed out above, Satin Doll is a complicated tune and that's really all I was saying. As a (relative) beginner, it's a bit beyond me at the moment. It changes, not every 8 bars or so, but seemingly every couple of bars.

Take say 'Summertime', here I can stick to a pentatonic scale (tenor B in the version I play), and the notes 'fit' all through. None of them ever becomes an anti-note (G is though very much an anti note). Now, my teacher plays Summertime and uses a lot of notes that are not in the pentatonic scale and it sounds better when he play it because of that (he even manages to get G to sound ok), but the point remains that you CAN use the simple pentatonic scale over it and it sounds 'not wrong'.

My point, and it was just an observation, not a criticism or complaint, was that you can't really do this with Satin Doll.C/C# swaps from a note to an anti note, same with B/Bb. Hopefully in a year or so, if I progress then I can come back to it and play it, but at the moment, other than the notated melody, I don't feel I can play this tune.

 

[U CAN CALL ME AL]

@Tiberius there's no reason whatsoever for you not to play this tune. Listen to as many versions as you can find on spotify etc. Copy someone whose style you like play along with them, just the melody over and until you can do it in your sleep. Then try playing a harmony or just fill in the gaps, alter the rhythmic motif keeping the same notes. You'll soon develop a feel for the tune and begin to vary it (improvise?).

 

[nigeld]

Hopefully in a year or so, if I progress then I can come back to it and play it, but at the moment, other than the notated melody, I don't feel I can play this tune.

Same for me.

 

[Dibbs]

...By anti-notes, I meant those notes that Les Dawson played...notes that 'most' people would say are 'wrong'. I assume there's a proper musical term for such a note? I tend to think of music as notes (that I can play), and anti-notes (that I shouldn't play).

I don't think there is a "proper" term but they are often referred to as "avoid notes". It's not a term I particularly like but it's more likely to be understood. You don't have to avoid them completely, just treat them with care.

I think Les Dawson's trick was just to play a semitone higher than the melody. Years ago I used to play piano in an amateur big band that Les used to come and listen to quite often. He once told me that he learnt everything he know about playing the piano from listening to me. That was the best insult I ever had.

 

[Eoe]

Okay check it out. Am7 E7 Am7 E7/A B7. Right away you got that E7./ A that indicate to you that you can do a suspended type of movement movement which means you can play a A note all the way through. And that B sevens I guess they want the bass player to walk straight up to the B from there. So you just follow him .... G is the 7th for the A and the third for the E. So you can do a G And A trill .