No question too stupid? Try this.

[old_git]

The pre valve brass could only play a harmonic series dependent on the crook in use, therefore it is reasonable to call them by the lowest note playable by the average player.
The flutes, whether fipple excited or not, are generally categorised by their bell note e.g. C or B foot for B?hm.
The Saxophone like the B?hm flute, is a fairly modern invention compared with other instruments, so what was the point of making the saxophone a transposing instrument?
1) Is it just to comply with the 'brass band everything in C' policy? If so why did Sax also invent the C and F series of orchestral saxophones?
2) Can anyone offer a logical explanation, as it does not comply with either the non-crook brass, the bell note flute or the open note naming policies?
3) Why beginners forum? Because I am a saxophone beginner, think concert and it is my first transposer.
Bill.

 

[mfox]

ok my only answer to this is what my wife told me..she is a classical trumpet player of some note..

answer.. tradition

 

[Bobby G]

I thought it might be something to do with relatively easy keys on saxophone coinciding with relatively easy keys on piano? You know, alto C = tenor F = piano Eb etc.

Then again, comfortable sax keys can really screw up guitar players who want to play everything in E or A.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Saxlicker]

I sense a lot of musical experience from the two guys posting the previous answers, so I'm not even sure I understand the question

I may be about to remove all doubt (see sue the sax's signature)
But hey I've been dumb before and I'll be dumb again so here goes...

I thought it was a transposing instrument simply to keep the fingering the same across the whole family of saxes? In which case Eb & Bb are just relative to concert pitch C from their pitch?

What am I missing?

 

[Bobby G]

I know what you're saying there, it would be impossible to have one sax capable of playing across the entire range, hence all the different sizes which overlap in their individual ranges.

But, aren't other instruments like this? For instance, flutes, recorders, clarinets, not all of which are transposing instruments (or are they? I don't think so but I'll stand corrected). Why weren't saxes all developed in C and F or G?

Perhaps as I've said it's something to do with relative ease of keyboard keys; maybe it's to do with mimicking the pitch and range of the equivalent human voice?

On the other hand, just ***ing deal with it :laugh:

Cheers, Bob

 

[mfox]

i'll try and be a bit clearer..
back in the olden days (bob will remember this) when the only real brass instrument with full chromatic ability was the trombone, the other horns were played on just a basic pipe, the most advanced trumpets were curled pipes. now as you will know if you have ever tried to play a bu gal you don't get a full chromatic scale just the harmonics.. so all the brass players would have a number of horns to choose from for what ever piece they were playing..horn parts were pretty basic stuff as you can imagine..
as the brass family developed and things started to get valved up they chose a instrument that offered the best range and that happened to be the Bb horn (they must have tried many) remember horns didn't have as much curvy piping in those days so any instrument was biggish. and so began the TRADITION of Bb. now the natural partner for a Bb is an Eb, so there we have it.
now french horn is in F don't know why. fingered with the left hand, probably something to do with hunting and horses..
these days many classical trumpet players are moving away from the classic Bb.Eb combo for a C, Eb combo..

as far as saxophone gos they were just following what was tradition, but you have to admit that they got it spot on as far as tone produced especially as far as alto/ tenor gos.. i used to have a c melody and it was neither one or t'other..

 

[Bobby G]

Thanks for all that mark. So to sum up, it is just tradition.

I have a recording of a Haydn trumpet piece in Eb which apparently blew listeners away because it was the first piece to fully explore the possibilities of playing a new-fangled valve trumpet chromatically. You may not think you know it, but it's one of those tunes that's part of mass consciousness.

Anyway, leading on from the chromatic trombone, to the chromatic i.e. valved trumpet, why is the valve trombone?

Cheers, Bob

 

[old_git]

Thanks guys especially mfox who understands that not all brass players had the lips of Maynard Ferguson, who could get up high enough for quarter tones.
Why valve trombones? There are two types of slide trombonist, the tailgate, who generally play glissando joins between the other front line instrument phrases and those who like me, delighted in trying to play it like a valved instrument. The valve trombone, like the reed woodwinds, allows one to try and play glissando. Such is the mental deterioration caused by music.
Finally, tradition, which I'm all in favour of, as it is the tradition on this board to divert all your direct debit payments to me. 😛
Bill.

 

[Linky Lee]

Bob, Clarinets are traditionally in Bb so they are a transposing instrument, and recorders can come in many different keys. I believe the descant (standard recorder is in C) possibly the treble is in G? the bass in C again and I'm not sure about the others, there are too many to remember. But many recorders are transposing instruments as well.

The standard orchestral flute is in C and possibly the bass flute is as well, but I think the Alto flute or whatever it's called is in a different key, not sure which though.

Time for some research me thinks.

Research says G alto flute and sometimes a Bb bass flute. Also sometimes piccolos are in different keys like Eb and so on. Though the standard is C at the moment.

As far as recorders go descant in C, alto in F, treble in C and bass in F. You can get ones higher and lower but they are uncommon, kind of like the contrabass sax and the soprillo I guess, though they are in C and F respectively. You used to be able to get recorders in Eb D and G around the baroque period but they've fallen out of use recently.

 

[old_git]

Some confusion here.
Because an instrument is described as being in a key does not make it transposing. For instance, the Bb trumpet reads a C but plays a concert pitch Bb, just like a tenor saxophone, whereas a tenor trombone although also categorised as a Bb instrument is non-transposing, so when reading a C plays a concert C.
The point that I'd like logically explained is why, if an instrument like the B?hm flute are non transposing being classified by the all holes closed bell note, why should the tenor saxophone, a later invention, which has a bell note of Ab concert, be classified as a Bb transposing instrument?
Sorry to be a pain but I am VERY thick. :x
Bill.

 

[spike]

Cut and paste from Wikipedia,

A transposing instrument is a musical instrument whose music is written at a pitch different from concert pitch. Concert pitch is the pitch as notated for piano (or any other non-transposing instrument) - e.g., the note "C" on piano is a concert C. On a transposing instrument, a concert C is written as another note. On the surface, this may be confusing, but there are several reasons for the existence of transposing instruments. The difference between a transposing instrument and a non-transposing instrument is only in whether or not the music is written at its sounding (concert) pitch.

EDIT: a while later after sitting in the sun, the B flat, E flat etc. deal with saxophones refers to the concert tone produced when the "instrument's C Note" is played, on a tenor/soprano this is a B flat, on alto/bari an E flat. The advantage with transposing instrument families is that a Saxophonist for example can play the same "Keyboard" on any of the different saxophones. The instrument's C will always be in the same place and the notation for that instrument will also be written as a C on the stave, however the pitch will be according to which of the family of saxes it happens to be.

The early members of the sax family were designed as C and F instruments for sinfonic use and Bb and Eb instruments intended for the military bands, allthough the C Melody became very popular in the Twenties, it's the various Bb and Eb members that have dominated since, mainly due to the popularity of the saxophone in Jazz music. (Very few classical composers were prepared to write works for the saxophone, and the military bands ran out of bootle during the depression years after WWI.)

gruss - spike

 

[Saxlicker]

spike wrote:
The advantage with transposing instrument families is that a Saxophonist for example can play the same "Keyboard" on any of the different saxophones. The instrument's C will always be in the same place and the notation for that instrument will also be written as a C on the stave, however the pitch will be according to which of the family of saxes it happens to be.

gruss - spike

Thanks Spike, thats what I was trying to say 8|

 

[mfox]

also i would like to add that. orchestral trumpets here are traditionally in Bb, in france they have always been traditionally in C...

spike is also correct about the music, but there are more than staves than treble and bass, there is alto and tenor also..not used much these days..

 

[old_git]

Thanks once again guys but still wonder why two opposing systems have grown up together.
From what I've gleaned here, shout "C" at a saxophonist and whether Bb or Eb series, they will finger it the same but produce different notes. Do the same with with C and F recorders and they will finger it differently but produce the same note.
It benefits someone but coming from the 'transposition-seems-strange-world', not sure whom. :S
Whatever, for the third time the lip is building strength and I'm enjoying my first reed instrument and thanks for being so patient with an ancient idiot.
Bill.