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Need help please.
- Thread starter ken
- Start date
My first thought was a problem with the horn. A pad that doesn't seal completely, a pad that is stuck, a spring that is off, something along those lines.
My next thought was a problem with the reed or the mouthpiece. But I can't imagine a problem coming up all of a sudden from a mouthpiece, and you did try multiple reeds.
Both of those ideas are shown to be likely wrong anyways, since the problem exists on both horns.
My first thought, is that you may have been practicing a bit much lately, and your lips are just shot. Although for most people this simply results in an inability to keep a firm "grasp" on the mouthpiece, for others, it can result in rather interesting noises.
Also, I know you are a real beginner, but based on what you have told us of your skills, I would move to a harder reed, maybe a Rico 2 1/2. #2 is a very light reed. 2.5 isn't much heavier, but it is certainly a noticeable difference.
Typically, the easiest way to squeak is to have a dry reed, or one that is barely moist.
I occasionally have difficulty switching between alto and tenor. Soprano and alto, or soprano and tenor work fine for me, but alto to tenor gets a bit messier, since they have completely different embouchures. When I try to play tenor, I squeak a bit before I get used to the horn. Then again, I don't play tenor on a regular basis, which is certainly part of it.
Here's what I would do...Give your lips a day to rest up. Play a little, and see if the problem is still there. If it is, go back to basics. Sit in front of a mirror, and play what you know. Make sure your hands are correctly placed on the horn, and pushing down each key all the way. Check your mouth positions, and make sure that you aren't too loose, or more likely, too firm.
If nothing works, I would work on other exercises for the rest of the week (it is truly amazing what you can do with just a mouthpiece), and wait to meet with your tutor.
A lot of beginners actually "over practice." It takes a long time to build up the muscles necessary to play even a couple hours a day, and warming up correctly is highly important.
My next thought was a problem with the reed or the mouthpiece. But I can't imagine a problem coming up all of a sudden from a mouthpiece, and you did try multiple reeds.
Both of those ideas are shown to be likely wrong anyways, since the problem exists on both horns.
My first thought, is that you may have been practicing a bit much lately, and your lips are just shot. Although for most people this simply results in an inability to keep a firm "grasp" on the mouthpiece, for others, it can result in rather interesting noises.
Also, I know you are a real beginner, but based on what you have told us of your skills, I would move to a harder reed, maybe a Rico 2 1/2. #2 is a very light reed. 2.5 isn't much heavier, but it is certainly a noticeable difference.
Typically, the easiest way to squeak is to have a dry reed, or one that is barely moist.
I occasionally have difficulty switching between alto and tenor. Soprano and alto, or soprano and tenor work fine for me, but alto to tenor gets a bit messier, since they have completely different embouchures. When I try to play tenor, I squeak a bit before I get used to the horn. Then again, I don't play tenor on a regular basis, which is certainly part of it.
Here's what I would do...Give your lips a day to rest up. Play a little, and see if the problem is still there. If it is, go back to basics. Sit in front of a mirror, and play what you know. Make sure your hands are correctly placed on the horn, and pushing down each key all the way. Check your mouth positions, and make sure that you aren't too loose, or more likely, too firm.
If nothing works, I would work on other exercises for the rest of the week (it is truly amazing what you can do with just a mouthpiece), and wait to meet with your tutor.
A lot of beginners actually "over practice." It takes a long time to build up the muscles necessary to play even a couple hours a day, and warming up correctly is highly important.
Hi Ken,
I had the same experience and I too am a beginner.
For me it was down to how I potitioned the mouth piece in my mouth.
I was able to make a higher sound without even holding the octave key and was able to tighten and slacken my position to get this to happen. More often than not this made my playing a hard job, squeeky and irratic.
My tutor solved this for me by putting a small bit of electrical tape where my teeth sit on the mouth piece.
This soon formed a ridge and my mouth position returns to the same place every time thus giving me at least half a chance of getting it right !
Not very pretty but it worked a treat and I've since found yamaha mouth piece patches that are specially made for the job.
I also use a Rico Royal 1.5 ........ can't live with the 2 as I go blue trying to get through a tune as I do forget to breath at times and the strength of reed takes it's toll on me ..... :laugh:
I had the same experience and I too am a beginner.
For me it was down to how I potitioned the mouth piece in my mouth.
I was able to make a higher sound without even holding the octave key and was able to tighten and slacken my position to get this to happen. More often than not this made my playing a hard job, squeeky and irratic.
My tutor solved this for me by putting a small bit of electrical tape where my teeth sit on the mouth piece.
This soon formed a ridge and my mouth position returns to the same place every time thus giving me at least half a chance of getting it right !
Not very pretty but it worked a treat and I've since found yamaha mouth piece patches that are specially made for the job.
I also use a Rico Royal 1.5 ........ can't live with the 2 as I go blue trying to get through a tune as I do forget to breath at times and the strength of reed takes it's toll on me ..... :laugh:
I use a Rico La Voz.
I was advised to try a "standard" Yamaha but I couldn't wait for the music store to order one in. The Rico wasn't expensive and seems to suit me.
Yamaha ::Here::
Rico ::Here::
Mouth piece patches and various other bits from ::windband.co.uk
Hope this helps Ken.
I was advised to try a "standard" Yamaha but I couldn't wait for the music store to order one in. The Rico wasn't expensive and seems to suit me.
Yamaha ::Here::
Rico ::Here::
Mouth piece patches and various other bits from ::windband.co.uk
Hope this helps Ken.
drew_stewart
Member
- Messages
- 80
hi ken i have the same problem evry now and then!!it seems to be the position of your mouth on the mouthpiece it does it!the amount of times i did do it!was crazy but my tutor kept slapping me for it!maybe i liked the slapping :laugh: :laugh: but i definetely agree with elmer,good luck us beginers should stick together!
drew_stewart
Member
- Messages
- 80
you threw me when you said the shops open at 5 then i read your profile! 🙂
drew_stewart
Member
- Messages
- 80
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I think the problem is probably the horn. Nothing major, but I have found that tiny things like octave key being very slightly bent doesn't quite close, spring under the top F can slip sidewyas and so this key dpoesn't have enough pressure to close properly, a small shim of cork falling off or getting compressed. All of these things can cause a leak that might result in octave jumping, or quite often jumping a 5th, e.g. you get A instead of D.
I really don't know. It can happen to any horn - especially newish ones that may need to "settle in". Sometimes they play OK in the shop, then travelling dislodges something hafway but it's still Ok, then playing on it a bit dislodges something even more. But if it's both horns then it's less likely to be the horn than I originally thought.
I'm jumping in a bit late in the discussion again, but I thought I'd clear up a couple things I said before.
By mouth position, I was mostly referring to your embouchure. Making sure that your lips are properly placed, that kind of thing.
As for warming up...I would suggest just working through scales for now. Go slowly through 5-6 of them, say a quarter note or so per pitch. You can also mess around with different rhythms and such.
Another useful warmup exercise with scales deals with "Intervals."
Play the 1st note of the scale, then the 2nd, then the 1st, then the third, then the 1st, then the 4th, then the 1st, and so on. Go up and down the scale.
Doing both of those exercises for a few scales before doing serious playing warms up the instrument and mouthpiece, and gets your lips ready for the assault of playing real music. After warmup, then you can tune your sax and the pitch will stick better, since the horn is the same temperature. A cold horn will typically blow flat until it warms up.
The above warmups are very basic ones, and there are hundred of other things you could mix in with them. Some of the exercises on Pete's site make great warmups.
5-12 hours a day is a lot for a beginner, and it is certainly possible that your lips have tired out some. However, if you do take steady breaks, you will be able to play for a fair amount of time. For me, I play an hour in band early in the morning. After school I come home and play for another hour. I grab a quick bite to eat and then rush off to rehearsal, where I'll play for 4+ hours. At rehearsal, if we are just running over everything without any breaks, I'll be exhausted by the end of it. If I have even 5 minutes here and there, I'm totally fine.
With reed strengths... Some players make a lot of squeaking noises if their reed is: 1. Bad, 2. Too Dry, 3. Too Wet 4. Too Hard, or 5. Too soft. Since you tried different reeds of the same variety, I felt it safe to assume that 1-3 weren't an issue. That leaves too hard or too soft. Although it is common to start players on #2 reeds (I had no idea that anything lighter even existed until I read a post above), many school start their students on 2.5s also. The overall difference between 2 and 2.5 isn't very much, and if things improved, could tell you that all that was needed was a harder reed. With the amount that you are playing, I think this is probably a good step-up anyways. Still, if 2.5 doesn't feel right after a certain amount of playing with it, then don't. A lot of people move to harder reeds too quickly.
As for testing out the reeds you bought...just get yourself warmed up. Make sure they are all moist and then play a few scales and then some music on them. See what feels right. The 3 and 3.5s might be a bit hard for you though. At the same time, without hearing you play, I have no idea. It all depends on the musician him/herself. You will get a deeper sound on the harder reeds, but you will lose the controllability of the lighter ones. It is certainly possible to get the same quality of sound on a lighter reed, with enough practice.
Another thing...reed strengths vary between brands (ie. a 3 Rico is different than a 3 Vandoren Java, which is still even different from a Vandoren V16). If you google for "Saxophone Reed Strength Chart" I'm sure you'd be able to find the exact comparisons.
And don't worry too much about the "permanent damage" thing from the Teal book. Don't get me wrong, the book is an excellent resource, but it is a bit...different, for some things. It even goes so far as to say that those with overbites should never play the saxophone, yet when I started I had one, and am still darn good for my age. Unless you are working on the extreme ranges of the horn, and pushing the boundaries you won't cause nerve damage. And most of those boundaries you have a couple years before you'll reach.
If you are already picking up scales and getting a few tunes down, you definitely have some skills! Don't put yourself down too much. As jazz great Stan Getz said on his 50th birthday "I think I'm finally learning how to play the saxophone!" (or something along those lines).
By mouth position, I was mostly referring to your embouchure. Making sure that your lips are properly placed, that kind of thing.
As for warming up...I would suggest just working through scales for now. Go slowly through 5-6 of them, say a quarter note or so per pitch. You can also mess around with different rhythms and such.
Another useful warmup exercise with scales deals with "Intervals."
Play the 1st note of the scale, then the 2nd, then the 1st, then the third, then the 1st, then the 4th, then the 1st, and so on. Go up and down the scale.
Doing both of those exercises for a few scales before doing serious playing warms up the instrument and mouthpiece, and gets your lips ready for the assault of playing real music. After warmup, then you can tune your sax and the pitch will stick better, since the horn is the same temperature. A cold horn will typically blow flat until it warms up.
The above warmups are very basic ones, and there are hundred of other things you could mix in with them. Some of the exercises on Pete's site make great warmups.
5-12 hours a day is a lot for a beginner, and it is certainly possible that your lips have tired out some. However, if you do take steady breaks, you will be able to play for a fair amount of time. For me, I play an hour in band early in the morning. After school I come home and play for another hour. I grab a quick bite to eat and then rush off to rehearsal, where I'll play for 4+ hours. At rehearsal, if we are just running over everything without any breaks, I'll be exhausted by the end of it. If I have even 5 minutes here and there, I'm totally fine.
With reed strengths... Some players make a lot of squeaking noises if their reed is: 1. Bad, 2. Too Dry, 3. Too Wet 4. Too Hard, or 5. Too soft. Since you tried different reeds of the same variety, I felt it safe to assume that 1-3 weren't an issue. That leaves too hard or too soft. Although it is common to start players on #2 reeds (I had no idea that anything lighter even existed until I read a post above), many school start their students on 2.5s also. The overall difference between 2 and 2.5 isn't very much, and if things improved, could tell you that all that was needed was a harder reed. With the amount that you are playing, I think this is probably a good step-up anyways. Still, if 2.5 doesn't feel right after a certain amount of playing with it, then don't. A lot of people move to harder reeds too quickly.
As for testing out the reeds you bought...just get yourself warmed up. Make sure they are all moist and then play a few scales and then some music on them. See what feels right. The 3 and 3.5s might be a bit hard for you though. At the same time, without hearing you play, I have no idea. It all depends on the musician him/herself. You will get a deeper sound on the harder reeds, but you will lose the controllability of the lighter ones. It is certainly possible to get the same quality of sound on a lighter reed, with enough practice.
Another thing...reed strengths vary between brands (ie. a 3 Rico is different than a 3 Vandoren Java, which is still even different from a Vandoren V16). If you google for "Saxophone Reed Strength Chart" I'm sure you'd be able to find the exact comparisons.
And don't worry too much about the "permanent damage" thing from the Teal book. Don't get me wrong, the book is an excellent resource, but it is a bit...different, for some things. It even goes so far as to say that those with overbites should never play the saxophone, yet when I started I had one, and am still darn good for my age. Unless you are working on the extreme ranges of the horn, and pushing the boundaries you won't cause nerve damage. And most of those boundaries you have a couple years before you'll reach.
If you are already picking up scales and getting a few tunes down, you definitely have some skills! Don't put yourself down too much. As jazz great Stan Getz said on his 50th birthday "I think I'm finally learning how to play the saxophone!" (or something along those lines).
One other thing I thought I'd mention about Larry Teal. Both of my band directors studied under him, and often tell stories of him. He was very much a crochety, cranky, sort of man. He was also a perfectionist, and would often yell, throw things, slap students on the legs...that kind of thing. Like I said, his book is a great reference, and I use it often, but know that the style to some of the writing is very much by him.
sorry to jump in so late, but im new. so i do have an excuse.
and im new to the sax as well, so i can relate to your situation ken. The reason im jumping in is that I had exactly the same problem. On both my saxes. When I first started playing, I would carefully fit my reed, Grease everything that looked like it needed greasing, then procede to grab the crook and squeeze my mpc over a nice new cork which took a lot of pushing and shoving. Didnt take long before id knocked the key thingy ( i think thats the technical term ) out of shape ever so slightly. This caused some excelent squeeks from both the sax and me.
easy to check though, just try playing and if ya squeek, get ya mrs. to hold the pad down a little with her finger to stop any leaks. ( just how a sax repairer did to me ) if it plays ok, you know to be more careful in future when assembling it.
and im new to the sax as well, so i can relate to your situation ken. The reason im jumping in is that I had exactly the same problem. On both my saxes. When I first started playing, I would carefully fit my reed, Grease everything that looked like it needed greasing, then procede to grab the crook and squeeze my mpc over a nice new cork which took a lot of pushing and shoving. Didnt take long before id knocked the key thingy ( i think thats the technical term ) out of shape ever so slightly. This caused some excelent squeeks from both the sax and me.
easy to check though, just try playing and if ya squeek, get ya mrs. to hold the pad down a little with her finger to stop any leaks. ( just how a sax repairer did to me ) if it plays ok, you know to be more careful in future when assembling it.
First of all, reeds. They are the bane of the woodwind player's existence. A reed that plays beautifully one moment may play like absolute crap the next. And even finding one that plays well can be a challenge. I've gone through an entire box of Vandoren reeds to find that I didn't like a single one of them.
Just because a reed appears to be a bit warped and wavy doesn't mean it is a bad reed. Personally, I'm the worst person to talk about for reed care, as I tend to take a reed out of the little plastic case they come in, through it on my mouthpiece, and if it sounds somewhat good, I'll play on it. If it doesn't, it goes back in a case and I pull out another. Usually my pockets are filled with about 15 reeds at any given time. I also keep a reed on my mouthpiece, which I know is a big "no no." I could care less, it sounds alright to me, so I'm not going to go out of my way to change the habit, hehe.
With the medical stuff...I'm certainly no medical expert, but I did some quick googling and it looks like most doctors recommend physical activity daily when dealing with high Triglyceride levels. I assure you that playing an instrument is a great exercise tool. Not only are you working your respiratory system, you are also engaged in using a very large portion of your brain. I forget the exact amount, but I've heard some research that makes claims to 98% brain activity when playing an instrument.
Here is a good article about reed breaking-in:
http://www.tsmp.org/band/utley/reeds.html
I really like this article, expecially since it deals with something I am often guilty of:
http://www.gregvail.com/sys-tmpl/reeds/
Just because a reed appears to be a bit warped and wavy doesn't mean it is a bad reed. Personally, I'm the worst person to talk about for reed care, as I tend to take a reed out of the little plastic case they come in, through it on my mouthpiece, and if it sounds somewhat good, I'll play on it. If it doesn't, it goes back in a case and I pull out another. Usually my pockets are filled with about 15 reeds at any given time. I also keep a reed on my mouthpiece, which I know is a big "no no." I could care less, it sounds alright to me, so I'm not going to go out of my way to change the habit, hehe.
With the medical stuff...I'm certainly no medical expert, but I did some quick googling and it looks like most doctors recommend physical activity daily when dealing with high Triglyceride levels. I assure you that playing an instrument is a great exercise tool. Not only are you working your respiratory system, you are also engaged in using a very large portion of your brain. I forget the exact amount, but I've heard some research that makes claims to 98% brain activity when playing an instrument.
Here is a good article about reed breaking-in:
http://www.tsmp.org/band/utley/reeds.html
I really like this article, expecially since it deals with something I am often guilty of:
http://www.gregvail.com/sys-tmpl/reeds/
Melissa
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,079
- Location
- Northamptonshire UK
I never knew that health issues could affect your sax life. Better get practicing...
ha... sax life
me and my dumb jokes :erm:
ha... sax life
me and my dumb jokes :erm:
drew_stewart
Member
- Messages
- 80
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: melissa so funny!
drew_stewart
Member
- Messages
- 80
hi ken could it be that you are moistening too much,with soaking them for an hour?i just moisten mine in my mouth for 10 mins or so then play! maybe i'm wrong!
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