SYOS

M/Pieces - Ligs Mouthpiece Trial and Returns

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Pete Effamy

Pete Effamy

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Ah. Lived in Leeds in my college years but never ventured to Bradford. Leeds had John Shearer and another while I was there but I think they’re both possibly gone now. York had a big shop that was amazing for classical repertoire but I think that downgraded as has most.
Nottingham Windblowers was pretty good as was Toot Sweet for old horns. Think that went too. You probably know them all?
 

Keep Blowing

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Ah. Lived in Leeds in my college years but never ventured to Bradford. Leeds had John Shearer and another while I was there but I think they’re both possibly gone now. York had a big shop that was amazing for classical repertoire but I think that downgraded as has most.
Nottingham Windblowers was pretty good as was Toot Sweet for old horns. Think that went too. You probably know them all?
Rupert from Toot Sweet left Nottingham, can't remember where he went but some of the guys on the Café know where he is. I believe he's still doing his thing
 
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Pete Effamy

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Rupert from Toot Sweet left Nottingham, can't remember where he went but some of the guys on the Café know where he is. I believe he's still doing his thing
That's good to know - super nice guy. Haven't seen him for 25 - 30 years I guess. Used to have loads of Bueshers, Conn's, some King's and Buffet S1's and a few Balanced and 6's. I only had eyes and ears for the 6 back then but would be interested in all of them now. He was servicing Simply Red's sax player's horn - Ian Kirkham (heard him on the latest track from Simply Red? Storming Pop player). He let me have a go (sorry Ian). It was the best mk 6 I've ever blown by a margin. The open C# sang and buzzed like crazy. Hope you still have that horn Ian, it was a monster...
 

Pete Thomas

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Buying mail order there is a 14 day 'right to return' for full refund including postage, not return, so there should be no 'restocking fee' or similar charge.
My understanding is that under EU distance selling regulations, if packaging is sealed (e.g. for hygiene reasons) and that seal is broken, then there is no obligation on behalf of the seller to accept a return.

I remember discussing this with Worldpay credit/debit card merchant account who insist on sellers have an EU compliant policy. I mentioned mouthpieces and they were of the opinion they would fall under the same category as earrings, underwear etc. and should not legally need a return policy unless the packaging is still sealed.
 
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Pete Effamy

Pete Effamy

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My understanding is that under EU distance selling regulations, if packaging is sealed (e.g. for hygiene reasons) and that seal is broken, then there is no obligation on behalf of the seller to accept a return.

I remember discussing this with Worldpay credit/debit card merchant account who insist on sellers have an EU compliant policy. I mentioned mouthpieces and they were of the opinion they would fall under the same category as earrings, underwear etc. and should not legally need a return policy unless the packaging is still sealed.
I'm not sure that is correct Pete.

The contract requires the goods be of a satisfactory quality and they must match the description given. This is because, when an individual orders goods without ever seeing, touching or smelling them, they are creating a trust relationship with the seller. They become dependent on the seller that their purchased goods are up to the reasonable standard expected and fits the description given. If it does not, then the trust is broken.

And paying £3 for a re-stocking fee beats the hell out of a train ticket or drive/parking.
 

Pete Thomas

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I'm not sure that is correct Pete.

The contract requires the goods be of a satisfactory quality and they must match the description given.
Yes that is true, I was talking about cases where the item doesn't fit into unsatisfactory quality or not fit for purpose. Yes, if the mouthpiece was not in working order or not as describes, then the seller must return (and in that case also return shipping both to and from the customer)

The issue would be if the mouthpiece has been played (and that would not be possible without breaking into a sealed package) and the customer then decides it is not exactly what they want. Legally I don't think they would be obliged to accept a return (but I would as would many mouthpiece makers/producers) In that case a mouthpiece maker would probably accept a return within the 14 day period but would not expect to return the outgoing shipping costs. (Unlike if the seal was intact).
 

randulo

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If it is in the terms, a restocking fee is permissible. (oops, not quite)


"Some traders may not charge you for returning your goods. However, they should tell you in advance (before you order) if you will have to pay if you decide to return your order. If they don't tell you that you must pay for your return, the trader will have to pay for it. You don't have to pay any other charges that you were not informed of."

 

Targa

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My understanding is that under EU distance selling regulations, if packaging is sealed (e.g. for hygiene reasons) and that seal is broken, then there is no obligation on behalf of the seller to accept a return.

I remember discussing this with Worldpay credit/debit card merchant account who insist on sellers have an EU compliant policy. I mentioned mouthpieces and they were of the opinion they would fall under the same category as earrings, underwear etc. and should not legally need a return policy unless the packaging is still sealed.
Earring, underwear, anything can be returned even if the packaging has been opened if faulty (obviously), not as described or not of expected quality, (repeated PE above).
This leads to when can a mouthpiece be returned as such which I think as the law stands is at the buyer's discretion which might be unfair to the retailer.
My other question is if it has been returned even under a try before you buy, is it at least declared as 'used' to a subsequent purchaser even if not discounted?
(edit: Hadn't seen your latest reply when I posted)
 

Pete Thomas

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Earring, underwear, anything can be returned even if the packaging has been opened if faulty (obviously), not as described or not of expected quality, (repeated PE above).
Agreed, if faulty
My other question is if it has been returned even under a try before you buy, is it at least declared as 'used' to a subsequent purchaser even if not discounted?
All PPT mouthpieces have been "used" in that they have been test played by two people during the QC process. I believe all mouthpiece manufacters would have a policy of re-selling something that has been tried out, but refurbished. (=e.g. washed, sterilised, rebuffed, refinished, related - basically whatever is needed to restore to saleable in mint condition). Sometimes I get a return that I decide is not worth doing that with - e.g. deep scratches. In that case I charge the restocking fee and sell as ex demo or used.

I have seen manufacturers at trade shows letting people try mouthpieces, disinfecting and then selling as new. I think this is just accepted as long as they aren't damaged.

I advertise a discretionary restocking fee but rarely apply it. Accepting returns is something mouthpiece makers should do IMO, and if the law says we must refund outgoing postage then so be it. You just hope people love the mouthpieces so much they don't return and build a buffer into your margin to take into account any losses you make on returns.
 
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sax panther

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I haven't tried it myself, but I've read on other (inferior) music forums that amazon accept returns on Legere reeds - lots of people were a bit horrified by that!
 

Nick Wyver

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That's good to know - super nice guy. Haven't seen him for 25 - 30 years I guess. Used to have loads of Bueshers, Conn's, some King's and Buffet S1's and a few Balanced and 6's. I only had eyes and ears for the 6 back then but would be interested in all of them now. He was servicing Simply Red's sax player's horn - Ian Kirkham (heard him on the latest track from Simply Red? Storming Pop player). He let me have a go (sorry Ian). It was the best mk 6 I've ever blown by a margin. The open C# sang and buzzed like crazy. Hope you still have that horn Ian, it was a monster...
He's in Worthing now. I used to work with him in Nottingham so I might have seen you there.
 

Jules

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I understand why sax.co.uk don't do it, there are a lot of window shoppers out there, they want to try Mouthpieces but have no intention of buying,. It's already cost you the postage and can they still sell it as a new product,
I wasn't going to get involved here but I will flag another thing.... the economics of our situation mean stock of mouthpieces is limited. If we were to offer try outs on- say- the Theo Wanne 'pieces then its pretty likely the more popular sizes and designs would be permanently out on trial and we'd have no shop stock. Also- I've fallen foul of an acrimonious- "you sent it back scratched".. "No I didn't" argument once as well as a large proportion of our customer base who request pristine, sealed an unplayed 'pieces (reasonable on many levels but not really compatible with an ethos of try outs)
 
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Pete Effamy

Pete Effamy

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I wasn't going to get involved here but I will flag another thing.... the economics of our situation mean stock of mouthpieces is limited. If we were to offer try outs on- say- the Theo Wanne 'pieces then its pretty likely the more popular sizes and designs would be permanently out on trial and we'd have no shop stock. Also- I've fallen foul of an acrimonious- "you sent it back scratched".. "No I didn't" argument once as well as a large proportion of our customer base who request pristine, sealed an unplayed 'pieces (reasonable on many levels but not really compatible with an ethos of try outs)
All valid points. You can't argue with the market and you can only function as a business when things are viable. I must live in a bubble though - I've never bought a mouthpiece that was sealed, only ones that come in a box. Anyway, I wouldn't expect any shop to be able to stock more than a fraction of 'pieces these days as there are so many. Daft prices too, especially when you mention the Wanne's. I have to say that we're very lucky in the UK to have the shops that we have, even though they have dwindled significantly since the '80's. I've only had a tiny bit of first hand experience of shops in the States, but looking occasionally at websites and hearing from a few mates I'm not sure that there are that many great sax shops in North America. (@randulo @jbtsax ?). I know there is one in Vancouver, and SaxQuest seems really good.
The amount of horns in sax.co.uk is astonishing. It's every sax players cookie jar. If they only dipped into a few more vintage horns - but that's asking for everything.
 

randulo

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I'm not in North America (thank dog!) I do know that the store I go to in Bordeaux kets you test mouthpieces and they have a stock of Syos, in fact.
 
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