Martin Saxes and Selective Galvanic Corrosion.

[thomsax]

I read on Stephen Howards website about Martin toneholes and selective galvanic corrosion? Since then I have slept bad!! I have six Martins that I use + some other Martinmade horns waiting for repair/renovation. How frequent is selective galvanic corrosion? I have never resoldered any toneholes on a Martin.

Any other that plays Martin who have selective galvanic corrosion probleme?

Thomas

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/HandyHints/Martin_toneholes.htm

 

[Linky Lee]

I have a 1925 Martin Handcraft alto, very similar to the one reviewed. No problems.
But it had been sitting in a school cupboard for more than 23 years, the music teacher at the time told me.

 

[phil_edwards]

No probs on my Alto. Hope it stays that way.

Phil

 

[thomsax]

None of mine Martins have any corrosion. Not what I'm able to see. But most Martins seems to suffer from this. More or less. As long as my Martins are playing well I'll continue to play them.

I was told that I should use something called Metalli 55 (55% Ag/Cu/Zn/Sn, melting; 630-660 Celcius) when it's time for resoldering.

Thomas

 

[stephen_howard]

Thomsax wrote:
None of mine Martins have any corrosion. Not what I'm able to see. But most Martins seems to suffer from this. More or less. As long as my Martins are playing well I'll continue to play them.

I was told that I should use something called Metalli 55 (55% Ag/Cu/Zn/Sn, melting; 630-660 Celcius) when it's time for resoldering.

Thomas

630 degrees?? Your pillars and fittings will all drop off during the soldering priocess. Soft solder melts at around 200 degrees, and that's what all the pillars and fittings are secured with.
It sounds like you've been recommended a 'silver solder' ( which is what you'd use to assemble keys ) - which would certainly cure the corrosion problem but would require the horn to be completely dismantled right back to its component parts.

The corrosion issue is entirely down to moisture, so the best form of prevention is to ensure you thoroughly dry the bore of the horn after playing.
You could even go so far as to have the horn stripped and a thin coat of lacquer wiped around the inside of the tonehole where it meets the body.

Regards,

 

[thomsax]

Yes, he recommended silver solder because it's much better than soft solder. I have heard that Martin regret that they didn't use silver solder for the toneholes when they built them, the saxes would have become even better. The fittings and pillars are fine with the soft solder.

What a weapon 'The Martin' would be with real silver soldered tonholes!! The rumour says that 'The Martin' saxes were made from left-over brass howitzer shell casings from WWII. We're talking about a real shotgun!!!

Thomas

 

[thomsax]

Some information about Martin toneholes from a 1959 Martin sales brochure. They guaranteed the socket for 50 years!!!!

 

[stephen_howard]

I agree, the toneholes would be much better had they been silver-soldered on - a feature I've seen on one or two other vintage horns ( on Kings, I think ).

The problem with 'retro fitting' the toneholes with silver solder is that the heat required to melt the solder would mean all the pillars and fittings would drop off the body - so in effect you'd have to take the horn right back to a bare tube before you could perform the upgrade.

Interesting to note the 50 year guarantee! I guess they got it just about right - but it also means that someone at Martin was aware that there'd come a time when the solder would deteriorate.
I wonder if perhaps the corrosion issue was mentioned at the time, and the 50 year guarantee was Martin's response to worried buyers?

Regards,

 

[phil_edwards]

Thomsax wrote:
Some information about Martin toneholes from a 1959 Martin sales brochure. They guaranteed the socket for 50 years!!!!

Typical, you find out just as the guarantee's about to run out. 😡

Now, where's that receipt...

Phil

 

[Luluna]

Wow ~ that means my new/old Martin bari has 3 years left of the 50 ~ I better get cracking!

 

[stephen_howard]

Luluna wrote:
Wow ~ that means my new/old Martin bari has 3 years left of the 50 ~ I better get cracking!

You already are... or at least your toneholes are 😉

Don't forget though, it's perfectly acceptable to deal with small cracks in the joints with a drop of superglue - see the relevant article on my site for details.

Regards,

 

[Pete Thomas]

Stephen Howard wrote:

Luluna wrote:
Wow ~ that means my new/old Martin bari has 3 years left of the 50 ~ I better get cracking!

You already are... or at least your toneholes are 😉

Don't forget though, it's perfectly acceptable to deal with small cracks in the joints with a drop of superglue - see the relevant article on my site for details.

Maybe try claiming under the guarantee.

 

[Linky Lee]

My Martin Handcraft's guarantee was up 34 years ago then!

 

[Luluna]

I love the sound of mine ~ so growly and full!

Thanks Stephen for the great link and information - it is much appreciated.

Finally found an excellent (and a bit strange) repair person out in the boonies. Pete, he's a dead ringer for Jack Nicholson in The Shining and does repairs out of his cabin in the woods (I'm not kidding at all). I just make sure I drop off/pick up when it's still light out and my rugby playing husband is with me. (not kidding there either).

He checked for the SVG (very minor) and apparently I'm still in surprisingly good stead.

The links and info here are amazing - my "bookmark" sax folder is full!

 

[thomsax]

I'm really tempted to rebuild/customize my Magna tenor -59. Resolder the toneholes with silver solder and that means that the fittings and pillows also has to be removed and resoldered. I also would like:

- a new Gloger silver neck. Silver neck was an option according to the -59 pricelist.
- goldplate the body (Don Wise/ Delbert McClinton Band ... /, goldplated his 'The Martin Tenor' -54 a couple of years ago and it's a great horn. Goldplate was also an option according to the -59 pricelist.
- sterling silver ResoTech resonators (I already have them)

Lot's of work and money. But I would get a unique sax. If this becomes reality I would be glad to hand over the sax to Mr Stephen Howard for a review.

After this rebuild my Magna would sing for at least 50 more years!!!

Thomas

 

[greg_strange]

I don't know what I find stranger - a sax repair guy who looks like Jack Nicholson in The Shining...or a rugby union player in Vermont of all places. :laugh:

What next? The Samoan Snowboarding Team?

Regards,
Greg Strange - From the land of the "All Blacks".

 

[Luluna]

Sometimes I think we're the only family in Vermont that subscribes to "Setanta" sports channel ~ can't miss any soccer or rugby out here in the hinterland. My rugby playing hub went to school in Wales at Rydal before it merged with Penrhos. I have no clue how he/we ended up on the side of a mountain in Vermont. 😛

Take my word for it ~ the repair guy is a 100 times stranger - I think I may have to take a picture of the place and post it - a classic to be sure.

 

[arundo_donax]

In response to the original post, Don't Panic!!!....
I doubt if there's a serious risk of tone holes dropping off or leaking due to galvanic corrosion on a well looked after sax and if galvanic corrosion was a major problem, it'd also affect the solder joints holding together the bow and bell of most other saxes and wouldn't just affect Martin tone holes.
The problem of electrolytic chemical reactions due to dissimilar metals in contact with an electrolyte has been well known for years, but the old-fashioned lead/tin solder is fairly stable when used with brass and was be used on copper water pipes for years.
I've seen blue/green-ish and white -ish corrosion on the solder joints in the bow of old saxes, but it tends to be only a surface corrosion and doesn't go all the way through the joint. Unless your spittle and drool is particularly acidic, I really don't see much problem.
Maybe some Martin tone holes have fallen off in the past due to defective soldering or "dry joints", I've been looking at info on Martins for about 5 years on the internet and although i've encountered this rumour before, i've never seen any solid evidence for any tone holes to have fallen off a Martin due to corrosion and leaks seem very rare and only on saxes that have been badly corroded due to years of neglect...

I consulted a retired metallurgist (my dad..) and his comment was that it'd be very unlikely for galvanic corrosion to be severe enough to corrode all the way though the solder joint and that the layer of lead sulphate that naturally forms on the surface of the solder would tend to protect it from further corrosion and slow down the rate of decay. Solder joints like this have been known to last well over 100 years. It's possible that localised imperfections in the soldering might corrode more quickly and could (in combination with acidic sweat and beer sodden spittle over a long period of abuse) produce small pinholes. But the compounds produced by the reaction (carbonates, chlorides etc) would tend to block up any leaks... at least until a sax restorer soaks it in chemicals to clean it....

Maybe the problem has only shown itself now that vintage horn prices have made it worthwhile restoring festering old horns that have never been cleaned for 50 years and left to rot in a damp shed for another 20. Perhaps the combination of years of neglect and some of the processes used to clean and de gunk old horns back to shiny condition tend to reveal hidden problems...??

I'd also like to mention that for health and safety reasons, Lead/Tin solder is no longer allowed to be used in the EEC and the new lead free solders being used are far less likely to corrode.

Hope this is of some help, I'm not trying to denigrate Mr Howard's comments on this subject (I love his website..) - just reassure you that your beloved horn isn't gonna fall apart and need resoldering back together...
Selective Galvanic Corrosion isn't that much to worry about unless you're planning on restoring an old horn that's covered in green mould and hasn't been cleaned since the last great depression...and as SH points out, if you do get any leaks around the tone hole solder joints, you could seal them with a bit of laquer. ...
It certainly won't stop me wanting a Martin tenor and soprano to go with my altos...

this is my first post on this forum, so apologies for having rambled on a bit, but i do love a nice Martin....

now back to the plot.... :erm:

 

[stephen_howard]

As it happens, selective galvanic corrosion does affect the other joints on a sax - but because they're often rather larger ( in terms of surface area ) that those found on tone holes, the problem isn't quite as severe.

For example, any repairer who's had to remove a soldered-on bell will have noted that the joint is rarely completely'bright' and will often exhibit substantial areas where the solder has quite obviously broken down. However, when a pillar or other surface fitting is removed, the joint is nearly always bright.
This suggests that there's something happening with these joints that relates to their exposure to moisture
It can't be explained away as defective soldering as it's a very common phenomenon - even more so on old brasswinds...to the point where wagering a fiver that you'll find deterioration on such a joint is a pretty safe bet.

On vintage horns with drawn tone holes the problem tends to show itself at the crook - it's a relatively common job to have to refit a crook to its tenon joint, or the crook socket to the body.

Drawing a comparison with water pipes isn't really much use - although there's the same potential ( excuse pun ) for galvanic corrosion there are several factors that slow down the process - such as the pH of potable water and the formation of oxides on the pipe bore ( something that happens to brass to a lesser degree and throws up an issue as to whether you should use a swab or padsaver on a Martin horn...theoretically speaking, of course! ).

It's also not the case that the overall cosmetic state of the horn is a pointer - I've found I'm as likely to find the problem on Martins that appear to be in otherwise excellent condition ( hence my mention of the superglue trick...to save damaging the lacquer ).

Whilst it's true to say that Martin horns aren't likely to simply fall apart at a moment's notice, it's unwise to dismiss the phenomenon out of hand - on the basis that if you end up owning a horn with the problem you're going to need a rather fat wallet.

What's rather more likely is that Martins have always been something of an 'undiscovered secret', and it's only in recent years that the general playing public has cottoned on to how good these horns are - which has brought them into the limelight.
I can still remember a time when you couldn't give a Martin away, and I'm by no means old.
Lead free solder might go some way to easing the problem in the long term, but it carries its own problems.


Regards,

 

[arundo_donax]

so, how many saxes have you encountered with problems associated with corrosion of soldered toneholes? And how many didn't have any problems? It'd be useful to do some statistical analysis and establish how widespread the problem is...