Beginner impro Major scales and chords cheat sheet

[brianr]

I just look at it as a minor chord flat V sharp the 6. and after I'm done at the monastery preferably one that makes beer. My argument is going to be it should be called a minor chord flat 5 augmented 6 that way we can add a major 7th which does sound kind of cool

I think there is an argument which says you need to find a new Monastery, one which doesnt make its own beer 🙂

of course you could call it a "minor chord flat 5 augmented 6 " chord if you want. But why? Everyone else knows it as either a "half diminished" or a "minor 7th flat 5"
These are the names we are all using in this thread.

There is a chance that you will add to the confusion.

The B natural together with the A sharp (Bb ) sounds "interesting" though.

 

[Eoe]

I did say it was going to be a confusing book. at least I'm not calling it a rootless flat 9 chord. It's been so long I can't remember who theorized this Theory

 

[saxyjt]

all my music theory is based on the circle of fifths!

It's interesting that the circle of fifths that is so famous and apparently a must in the anglo-saxon world is an almost complete unknown in France, at least from a teaching point of view. I have one of the latest and most complete French music theory book in my hands (Claude Abromont's "Guide de La Théorie de la musique") and they only menton the 'cycle des quintes' in passing, with no explanation that's really useful. I can't speak for the rest of the Latin (Do, Ré, Mi...) world as I am not a well travelled musician yet, but here that's not a teaching tool at all.

So, for what it's worth, I am trying to deal with this, using Pete's book and I have a feeling that chords are kind of like the multiplication table. You have to learn them until they are natural. So, I've started to rebuild them step by step and I now have a table that I can use to learn them and play them too. It's not yet complete, but it's a start and it's mine. I hope that I didn't make too many mistakes building it or I'll be in serious trouble if I learn something that's wrong.

My chords table: My-Chords.pdf

So now I feel like my 9 years old son who's still not fully comfortable with his multiplication table. He sorts of knows it, but he hasn't understood how it all hangs together. I understand the idea behind the chords, but I wonder if I'll ever be able to master them so that they don't get in the way of my playing when it comes to improvising.

 

[Eoe]

@brianr I was just joking about the aug 6th thing but I was serious about playing the A (not A #) and adding a B on top. So play CEGB chord pinky on C B on right hand. Then CEbGB then CEbGbAB . Then BEbGbAB then BDGbAB then BDGbBb . And start the process again. Do arpeggios and just keep going till you get to C again.im not at my keyboard or guitar but I think this is right. So you would play a B on the sax over all these chords till there is no B left and it is Bb now. And you can move to the Bb as soon as it comes into play. Or play the arpeggios. Any way that is what I was making reference to in my half joke

 

[brianr]

@brianr I was just joking about the aug 6th thing but I was serious about playing the A (not A #) and adding a B on top. So play CEGB chord pinky on C B on right hand. Then CEbGB then CEbGbAB . Then BEbGbAB then BDGbAB then BDGbBb . And start the process again. Do arpeggios and just keep going till you get to C again.im not at my keyboard or guitar but I think this is right. So you would play a B on the sax over all these chords till there is no B left and it is Bb now. And you can move to the Bb as soon as it comes into play. Or play the arpeggios. Any way that is what I was making reference to in my half joke

In your original post, you said sharpen the 6th !!

Which is an "A sharp ", and what I was picking you up on. I was confused.

and now you are saying that you were joking, and that you meant "A natural "

I/We can only respond to what I/we see. there was no clue whatsoever that you were joking.

I hope you can see the confusion that you can cause.
To be honest, I find many of your posts confusing.

Now, i am far from an expert when it comes to harmony etc. But i know enough to recognise that your posts are often confusing and are often giving out WRONG information.

people read stuff on the internet and sometimes look for advice. If they are getting incorrect advice. Etc etc.... that is bad news.

for example the remainder of your post above
Did you read that back. Does it make sense to you.
I dont know what you mean, and I know a little bit about this stuff.

Can you clarify for us.

Can I politely suggest that you have a think about things a bit more carefully before posting, on threads where people are looking for advice.

 

[brianr]

@brianr

So play CEGB chord pinky on C B on right hand. Then CEbGB then CEbGbAB . Then BEbGbAB then BDGbAB then BDGbBb .

And start the process again. Do arpeggios and just keep going till you get to C again.

Aaaggghhh... I think Ive got you know

so, you gave C maj7, then C minor/maj 7, then C minor/flat 5/ 6 and maj 7,

then by changing just the root, you get back to the maj 7 in a new key.

ok, it works, but i feel it is too complicated and doesnt cover all the possibilities.

can I suggest something similar, which covers all 7th chord types , but only changes one note at a time, by flattening that note.
This changing only one note at a time is an important concept to grasp, and can help the thinking process..

Maj7, dominant 7, minor7, minor 7/flat 5, full diminished

So, from the start chord of C Maj 7 , ie C,E,G,B natural
flatten the 7th. - new chord is C7 ie C,E,G, Bb
flatten the 3rd - new chord is Cm7 ie C,Eb,G, Bb
flatten the 5th - new chord is Cm7/flat 5 ie C,Eb, Gb, Bb (Some folks call this half diminished)
flatten the flat seven - new chord is full diminished ie C, Eb, Gb, Bbb (or A )

This little ex is a great way to see what changes are needed to make the various 7th chord types.
Do this in all keys and you are well on the way.

 

[Dibbs]

Eoe, brianr,

You might find Chopin's Em prelude interesting to study (and very beautiful to listen to).

No. 4 here.

http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/...LP02344-Chopin_Op_28_Breitkopf_6088_first.pdf

 

[Eoe]

@brianr no the word aug was a joke dude as there are several writings on the subject and many confusing (go back and read my previous post)...if I confuse yyou o well you will eventually get it that is what research is for( and if you actually research aug 6th and deminish ,7th you would get it). Sometimes I may make a mistake but not usually. There are a lot of ways to modulate. The point of the modulation I was doing is you have that constant B as a peddel if you will or you may want to call it a suspension even. but you can toy with the sevens that is what is cool about them. but if you think I am wrong it's probly you and you need to rethink. Unless it has to do with playing the sax then I am probly wrong.

 

[brianr]

Ive done something wrong. Please click on the expand link, to read my reply.[Fixed, I'll PC you, kev]

my reply in red, to Eoe's posts in black

@brianr

(go back and read my previous post)...if I confuse yyou o well you will eventually get it that is what research is for

I did go back and re-read your post. it still doesnt make sense.
yes, research is good. But, what are you asking me to research. Your post doesnt make sense and I dont know where to look.
This is a thread where folks are looking for advice. Good advice......, not confusing advice, or told to do research.
If you have knowledge... share it. Enlighten us.

( and if you actually research aug 6th and deminish ,7th you would get it).

where would you suggest I research. I dont know what you are talking about. I would be surprised if others did.
You were talking about sharpening the 6th in a minor chord, whilst also having a major 7th.
ie a Bnatural and a Bb/A sharp. Would you care to link me to relevant info?
Or, can you clarify, in simple terms.

Sometimes I may make a mistake but not usually.

Sadly, I dont believe that this comment is true. Many of your posts in relation to jazz theory/harmony, are full of mistakes. Confusing mistakes. This is what I am trying to suggest you be more careful about.

There are a lot of ways to modulate. The point of the modulation I was doing is you have that constant B as a peddel if you will or you may want to call it a suspension even. but you can toy with the sevens that is what is cool about them.

Sorry, I dont have a clue what this means. could you clarify in simple terms what you are talking about.
Remember, we may not all have the levels of knowledge that you feel you have.

but if you think I am wrong it's probly you and you need to rethink.

LOL...............
To be honest, I usually dont know what points you are making. You may well be the only poster on this form who does follow your points.
I am no expert, but have a reasonable grasp of Jazz Harmony theory
Im beginning to have a real strong feeling that the problem is because you dont know what you mean, but for seem reason you feel a need to post your theories here................ for all to be confused.
This is a place where folks come looking for advice. I dont think your posts give good advice.

Unless it has to do with playing the sax then I am probly wrong.

I can only comment about your posts here. They are more often than not confusing and often contain wrong information.

 

[Eoe]

@brianr my humor was directed at people who have read The Works of piston, Heinrich schenker and Rameau. Look up French sixth German sixth..and my soon to be published the dark Larger sixth and 8 th tone in my bock 9 note scale. All the help I am going to give you. Please refrain from conversations with me.

 

[saxyjt]

min + min + min = diminished
min + maj = minor
Maj + min = Major
Maj + maj = augmented.
min + min + min + min = Dim7

Sorry to get back to the subject (and ignoring the turning naughty battle between eoe and brianr) but Colin, didn't you put one too many +min in both the first and last, ie diminished and Dim7?

I'm only starting to piece all of these things together, so I tend to read stuff twice to make sure I have it right now.

It's a 'minor' mistake, but that could cause 'Major' confusion in a weak beginner's mind like mine... 😛

 

[Colin the Bear]

Yes, looking at it, I've got a little confused with notes and intervals. Three notes in a diminished chord. Four notes in a Dim7. The beauty of diminished chords is if you keep going it's just the same notes all the way up.

 

[kevgermany]

Sorry to get back to the subject (and ignoring the turning naughty battle between eoe and brianr) but Colin, didn't you put one too many +min in both the first and last, ie diminished and Dim7?

I'm only starting to piece all of these things together, so I tend to read stuff twice to make sure I have it right now.

It's a 'minor' mistake, but that could cause 'Major' confusion in a weak beginner's mind like mine... 😛

Yes, looking at it, I've got a little confused with notes and intervals. Three notes in a diminished chord. Four notes in a Dim7. The beauty of diminished chords is if you keep going it's just the same notes all the way up.

Fixed.

 

[aldevis]

You were talking about sharpening the 6th in a minor chord, whilst also having a major 7th.

I guess that the subject of dim 7th, aug 7th, German or French 6th.... somehow relates to this, that I never found too interesting, but the whole point is having a pivot chord with alternative spellings for the same notes:
Modulation (music) - Wikipedia

 

[Zugzwang]

Gee, Sunday morning here, and serves me right for reading this thread before breakfast. Thank you Rob for posting - generous and helpful
D

 

[aldevis]

Two kinds of intervals 3 semitones minor and four semitones major. Like them brothers at public school. Big one and little one. Then it's just like Lego.

min + min = diminished
min + maj = minor
Maj + min = Major
Maj + maj = augmented.
min + min + min = Dim7

I never liked this approach (that, by the way, is used by Jimmy Dorsey in his saxophone method).
Intervals should relate to the root, to make more harmonic sense.

Maj + perfect = Major
Maj + aug = augmented
min + perfect = minor
min + dim = diminished

(on 4 notes chords):

MpM =Maj7
Mpm = 7
Mam = aug7
mpm = m7

and so on

 

[aldevis]

Aldevis or Pete can correct me if I am wrong, but I have always thought of a diminished, diminished 7, or minor 7b5 (half diminished) as variations on a V7. In other words they set up harmonic tension that leads to a release. For example, the diminished chord built on B in the key of C: B-D-F-A is the same as G9: G-B-D-F-A without the root.

The "demented" chord is the one I'm still trying to figure out. 😛

Historically this is true for most diminished chords in the great American songbook.
At some point (30s?) the HW/octatonic/doublediminished scale became fashionable (think Gonsalves).
This usually sits on a dominant chord, but if used as a mode (can be HW too) you can find it in Messiaen and some Ravel. Pretty exotic.

I see m7(b5) as a subdominant chord (originally in a minor key). Dm7(b5) in Cm was often spelled Fm6/D.
Never found (and I'd never write) Bm7(b5) instead of G9, even if G is omitted. I know guitarists that would do so, though.

The demented chord comes from the demented scale (ex in F): FGABbCDEF#

 

[Eoe]

@aldevis I agree I like it simple when I read and write keeping it G9 is just easy for me...that is why it is called theroy every has a take on it....I just write in terms of Maj and relative minor. And try to make it as easy to read as possible.. I have a song based on a 10 note scale with a nice chord to match but it is written as C with just quite a few acdentals