Saxophones Low Bb vs low A baritones.

[Tonehole]

Whoa! I am interested in how you have a Bass Sax! That has gotta take up a lot of floor space.
What is a set up on a horn like that cost?

 

[PigSquealer]

What is a set up on a horn like that cost?

Dunno 🤷‍♂️. I haven’t had one in yet. I’d guess a pad set with a decent booster alone costs $200-$250. The 60mm pads are now like $9 ea. Add a booster and they’re over $10. Probably three sticks of shellac, bla,bla bla and you’re over $300 in just parts & materials. Labor time ? In good condition, no damage work / overhaul required. I would guess 15-20 hours minimum. @$50/hr that’s a grand. ( Shops around here charge $85/hr for student repairs).
The biggest problem I see is finding a technician that can & will work on one.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Dunno 🤷‍♂️. I haven’t had one in yet. I’d guess a pad set with a decent booster alone costs $200-$250. The 60mm pads are now like $9 ea. Add a booster and they’re over $10. Probably three sticks of shellac, bla,bla bla and you’re over $300 in just parts & materials. Labor time ? In good condition, no damage work / overhaul required. I would guess 15-20 hours minimum. @$50/hr that’s a grand. ( Shops around here charge $85/hr for student repairs).
The biggest problem I see is finding a technician that can & will work on one.

I reckon that's a bit optimistic.
£250 over here will get you a decent set of tenor pads - so I'd be surprised if a bass set came in at less than £400. Like you say, those big pads get very pricey.

Even in good nick a bass tends to require a great deal more....coaxing. The sheer size of the keywork means there's a lot more flex to take into account - though this tends to be offset somewhat by the very forgiving nature of a bass.
Perhaps the biggest issue is swinging the thing around the bench. I have a separate bench that's much lower than my usual one (which I stand at) which enables me to walk around a larger horn rather than have to swing it over the bench.

A bass in poor condition gets expensive real fast.

I don't do them anymore, simply because I always end up with a sore lower back. I had to turn down an Eppelsheim contrabass job once....just wouldn't have been able to lift it 🙁

 

[turf3]

Whoa! I am interested in how you have a Bass Sax! That has gotta take up a lot of floor space.
What is a set up on a horn like that cost?

It's pretty easy to own a bass sax; you just pay money and take it home.

 

[thomsax]

I had a Selmer MkVI bass sax frommid 50's. I had it for around 10 days. When I was told what it would cost to bring it back in playable condition (NB no complete overhaul) I started to try to get rid of the sax. I was lucky, a tech bought it.

 

[JayeNM]

What did you think when you last worked on one?

Nobody owns a Thomann this side of pond...my yardstick is simply track record, longevity of reviews.
A bit subjective, yes, but my general approach is a model needs a good 7 years of decent reviews to put it on solid reputation footing.

Find me five or six solid reviews of their low Bb offering from players who have owned one for several years, put it thru its paces, and I'll gladly tip my hat.

 

[JayeNM]

Very Interested in knowing how current players can justify buying a Baritone saxophone these days. 🤫

I played a lot of Bass Clarinet in my youth. I have a Selmer 9 I bought from a symphony player who was upgrading so I could double in High school, Pit, & Jazz bands with it and my Bari. It got me more gigs. Not much call any more. Used the 9 in classical quartets a lot as well. I play a MeYer Bro 6 on it at present for studio work.

Sadly few calls any more.
Is it AI and lack of composers knowing the instrument?

I was asked if I wanted to buy the SBA by the owners wife when he passed. He was a member of the Canadian Brass. She wanted it to go to a young player who would cherish it. My YBS-62 I purchased in 2020 at a Yamaha clinician price. I have been renting the YBS out the past few years to players I know. Mainly studio work. Pays for maintenance and better than kept in a closet. Both horns are still in pristine condition. So both horns have more than paid for themselves and escalated in value since I purchased them. 😎

Being a Bari player may be like being a Trombone player these days sadly. Unless your Leo P!

Depends on the local scene, I guess. You have talked about the inconsistency of yours in the past.

I do agree with your theory, however. A Bari PART is not as common in popular music as it used to be, so it has been relegated to certain genres. But I think in a locality of robust Jazz/Funk/Soul activity, it is still pretty sought after...

 

[JayeNM]

That seems to be the new mentality. All the Gen-Zers and millennials that buy in our neighborhood refuse to water or edge or keep the bushes alive, just barely mowing frequently enough to avoid getting tickets from the city. Some of them are trying the "gravel yard xeriscape" concept but they seem unable to grasp that Dallas, TX is NOT in the middle of a desert. It is grassland, naturally, so when they put their beloved gravel yard in it takes about six months before the gravel is full of weeds, grass sprigs, and little trees growing up from the acorns and pecans. Unlike an ordinary grass yard where you just mow that little stuff off, with the gravel yard you've got to sit out there and pick 'em out one by one. Forever. Or, you do like these Gen Z and millennials do, and just leave it, so pretty soon it looks like crap. Honestly, kids, it would have been a heck of a lot easier to just buy a cheap lawnmower and run it over the yard every 2-3 weeks.

Low A or Low Bb mower ?????

 

[Stephen Howard]

Nobody owns a Thomann this side of pond...my yardstick is simply track record, longevity of reviews.
A bit subjective, yes, but my general approach is a model needs a good 7 years of decent reviews to put it on solid reputation footing.

Find me five or six solid reviews of their low Bb offering from players who have owned one for several years, put it thru its paces, and I'll gladly tip my hat.

Interesting.
I work to a different principle. I examine the construction and the build quality and compare it with the thousands of other horns I've worked on down the years - and then I use that experience and knowledge combined with basic engineering principles to arrive at a conclusion weighed against the price and the performance.
I don't give a great deal of heed to player reviews given that the vast majority wouldn't know one end of a point screw from the other.

 

[Grumps]

I don't give a great deal of heed to player reviews given that the vast majority wouldn't know one end of a point screw from the other.

What's a point screw?

 

[Stephen Howard]

What's a point screw?

It's that thing, right there.

 

[Tonehole]

Grumps said: What's a point screw?

Follow Pigsquealers threads and he can show you. I find Squealer very informative or read through a Howard tear down he highlights them often with pictures. They both show the good and the bad.

I may not be able to fix a saxophone but it helps when one understands how it functions mechanically.

 

[JayeNM]

Interesting.
I work to a different principle. I examine the construction and the build quality and compare it with the thousands of other horns I've worked on down the years - and then I use that experience and knowledge combined with basic engineering principles to arrive at a conclusion weighed against the price and the performance.
I don't give a great deal of heed to player reviews....

I do everything you just described, as I have been since I went into biz in 2003... although I give more cred to fellow players opinions than you seem to.

How one can minimize the impressions of actual owners and players who are often likely better players than you or I, is curious to me. I do agree most players have little clue about build precision and quality, nor would they be able to recognize things that are wanting in those categories. But they can certainly give valid feedback on tonality, intonation, ergos, key response and blowing response.

Those aspects are worth 'giving some heed', imho...

But everything you wrote fails to address this question - what if you have never had the model cross your bench ? Then what do you go on ? All one CAN go on are the experiences of those players who have tried the brand. Yes, it's loose, but it's something.
That 'something' begins to become 'more something' if the feedback comes back two or three years into owning and playing the model. Because now additional info, germane info, is being added.
How's it holding up ? How many visits to tech have you had to make in that time span ? Etc.

Now back to the thread subject of baritones...I DO note that Thomann's cheapest low A is significantly cheaper than their cheapest Low Bb. Might this suggest two different factories ? Which might suggest the Low Bb may not share some of the reported qualities of their low A or their other budgety-priced house brand horns?
We can speculate that might be so.

But sans reviews, both player and tech, of that actual current offering...and I literally mean THAT model, THAT voice of horn...it would be a bit of a leap of faith to say their Low Bb sits on the terra firma of Eastman's or Keilwerth's, imho.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I DO note that Thomann's cheapest low A is significantly cheaper than their cheapest Low Bb.

I think it may just be that the production run of low A is probably huge compared with the low Bb, so is more efficient.

 

[JayeNM]

I think it may just be that the production run of low A is probably huge compared with the low Bb, so is more efficient.

That could well be....

 

[helen]

....Keilwerth (modern company era) used to but stopped. ......

I did provide a link above to their website. They show them as available.

One day the bass saxophone is going to make a come-back, and take over the world.

The New Bassic Sax. (Still in progress, but links to the original site on homepage)

 

[JayeNM]

yes, thx, corrected myself on that in a subsequent comment of mine, following yours. That's cool, that's good they still produce 'em...

 

[turf3]

I think it may just be that the production run of low A is probably huge compared with the low Bb, so is more efficient.

Or, maybe they realize that low A modern horns are a commodity item, so purchase choice will be largely driven by price which has to be kept low, whereas low Bb modern horns are an oddball choice and can command a higher price.

Remember, the market price for a product does not depend on its manufacturing cost.

 

[Tonehole]

In spite of finding it hard to justify buying a Baritone sax these days I recently missed buying a Jupiter Artist model that listed for $1,500.00 CDN here out on the prairie! Not a need but a definite want to fill out my SAT set. The horn was in brilliant condition a closet horn.

"The JBS-893 silver-plated variant with a solid sterling silver neck was their absolute flagship configuration. Industry estimates suggest that specific variant likely saw fewer than 500 units produced over its lifespan, making it a very rare find on the secondhand market today."

I believe SBA are very rare Baritones and command crazy collector prices. MK VI seem to have been school horns so they show up hammered and beaten very cheap but costly to rebuild.

History Notes #09 : The Super Action ​

"When a number of modifications were made to the Selmer saxophones in early 1947, the American distributor decided that a new name was needed. They came up with the name Super Action. At the time, it was the Super Action, but we now often call it the Super Balanced Action to distinguish it from...

www.selmer.fr
"Total production numbers for the Super Action from 1947 to 1955 was about 22,000 instruments, with about 12,000 altos, 9,000 tenors and about 500 each for baritones and sopranos. Now the baritones introduced their very first Low A baritones in the Super Action. There were about 180 Low A baritones."

So about 320 Bb SBA Baritones were made?

 

[Stephen Howard]

How one can minimize the impressions of actual owners and players who are often likely better players than you or I, is curious to me. I do agree most players have little clue about build precision and quality, nor would they be able to recognize things that are wanting in those categories. But they can certainly give valid feedback on tonality, intonation, ergos, key response and blowing response.

Those aspects are worth 'giving some heed', imho...

But everything you wrote fails to address this question - what if you have never had the model cross your bench ? Then what do you go on ? All one CAN go on are the experiences of those players who have tried the brand. Yes, it's loose, but it's something.
That 'something' begins to become 'more something' if the feedback comes back two or three years into owning and playing the model. Because now additional info, germane info, is being added.
How's it holding up ? How many visits to tech have you had to make in that time span ? Etc.

Now back to the thread subject of baritones...I DO note that Thomann's cheapest low A is significantly cheaper than their cheapest Low Bb. Might this suggest two different factories ? Which might suggest the Low Bb may not share some of the reported qualities of their low A or their other budgety-priced house brand horns?
We can speculate that might be so.

But sans reviews, both player and tech, of that actual current offering...and I literally mean THAT model, THAT voice of horn...it would be a bit of a leap of faith to say their Low Bb sits on the terra firma of Eastman's or Keilwerth's, imho.
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Well I dunno about you but I'm no slouch on the sax - and I can hear stuff going on that lots of players far better than me miss. That's why they come to me - there are times when I can almost smell a leak. Come to think of it I might make some mileage out of that. "The Sax Sniffer". Yeah, I kinda like that. It's got an edge.

Tonality? Personal preference. Tuning? These days more than likely embouchure/technique. Ergos? Personal preference, again - unless someone's done something really wrong. Key response? Down to the individual setup by and large, highly tweakable. Blowing response? Personal preference.
Sure, folks are interested in such things - but none of that tells you how long the horn is likely to last nor how reliable it'll be.
So no, I pay little heed to the subjective stuff.

If I've never had a particular example on my bench I can only speculate based on what I might know about its origin.
I've done that many times when asked to comment on a horn I haven't seen, making it clear that it's an educated opinion rather than one based on examination - and the emphasis will still be on the build quality.
If there's no backstory and I haven't seen one, good luck. Hope it works out....and the 'glowing' player reviews match the build quality. Boutweaqued horn, anyone?

How's a horn holding up? Depends greatly on the context. If it's not holding up - why isn't it? What's going wrong? What led to that state of affairs?
Ditto visits to the tech. I wanna know the details, the background. I've have a few clients that are regular visitors to the workshop, with rather expensive instrument. Are they poorly built? No. Have they been badly repaired? Definitely not. Are the players clumsy and cack-handed? Bingo.
Do I mark the instruments down because of that? Hell no. Context wins. Every time.

As for the price difference between the low Bb and the cheapest low A model - it's blindingly obvious; they're from completely different factories. I wondered about the origins of the low Bb and the sibling A - so rather than guess I dropped Thomann a line. And yeah, made in the same Taiwanese factory. In the same review I reported that I'd had a low A version in and yep, same quality.

And heaven knows where you're going with the Eastman/Keilwerth thing.
The Eastman comes in at the 3 grand mark - as does the Thomann Low Jazz. Whaddya reckon? Comparable? Highly comparable?? Very likely the same???
Keilwerth? What's the price? There's your answer.