Saxophones Low Bb vs low A baritones.

[Tonehole]

Whoa! I am interested in how you have a Bass Sax! That has gotta take up a lot of floor space.
What is a set up on a horn like that cost?

 

[PigSquealer]

What is a set up on a horn like that cost?

Dunno 🤷‍♂️. I haven’t had one in yet. I’d guess a pad set with a decent booster alone costs $200-$250. The 60mm pads are now like $9 ea. Add a booster and they’re over $10. Probably three sticks of shellac, bla,bla bla and you’re over $300 in just parts & materials. Labor time ? In good condition, no damage work / overhaul required. I would guess 15-20 hours minimum. @$50/hr that’s a grand. ( Shops around here charge $85/hr for student repairs).
The biggest problem I see is finding a technician that can & will work on one.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Dunno 🤷‍♂️. I haven’t had one in yet. I’d guess a pad set with a decent booster alone costs $200-$250. The 60mm pads are now like $9 ea. Add a booster and they’re over $10. Probably three sticks of shellac, bla,bla bla and you’re over $300 in just parts & materials. Labor time ? In good condition, no damage work / overhaul required. I would guess 15-20 hours minimum. @$50/hr that’s a grand. ( Shops around here charge $85/hr for student repairs).
The biggest problem I see is finding a technician that can & will work on one.

I reckon that's a bit optimistic.
£250 over here will get you a decent set of tenor pads - so I'd be surprised if a bass set came in at less than £400. Like you say, those big pads get very pricey.

Even in good nick a bass tends to require a great deal more....coaxing. The sheer size of the keywork means there's a lot more flex to take into account - though this tends to be offset somewhat by the very forgiving nature of a bass.
Perhaps the biggest issue is swinging the thing around the bench. I have a separate bench that's much lower than my usual one (which I stand at) which enables me to walk around a larger horn rather than have to swing it over the bench.

A bass in poor condition gets expensive real fast.

I don't do them anymore, simply because I always end up with a sore lower back. I had to turn down an Eppelsheim contrabass job once....just wouldn't have been able to lift it 🙁

 

[turf3]

Whoa! I am interested in how you have a Bass Sax! That has gotta take up a lot of floor space.
What is a set up on a horn like that cost?

It's pretty easy to own a bass sax; you just pay money and take it home.

 

[thomsax]

I had a Selmer MkVI bass sax frommid 50's. I had it for around 10 days. When I was told what it would cost to bring it back in playable condition (NB no complete overhaul) I started to try to get rid of the sax. I was lucky, a tech bought it.

 

[JayeNM]

What did you think when you last worked on one?

Nobody owns a Thomann this side of pond...my yardstick is simply track record, longevity of reviews.
A bit subjective, yes, but my general approach is a model needs a good 7 years of decent reviews to put it on solid reputation footing.

Find me five or six solid reviews of their low Bb offering from players who have owned one for several years, put it thru its paces, and I'll gladly tip my hat.

 

[JayeNM]

Very Interested in knowing how current players can justify buying a Baritone saxophone these days. 🤫

I played a lot of Bass Clarinet in my youth. I have a Selmer 9 I bought from a symphony player who was upgrading so I could double in High school, Pit, & Jazz bands with it and my Bari. It got me more gigs. Not much call any more. Used the 9 in classical quartets a lot as well. I play a MeYer Bro 6 on it at present for studio work.

Sadly few calls any more.
Is it AI and lack of composers knowing the instrument?

I was asked if I wanted to buy the SBA by the owners wife when he passed. He was a member of the Canadian Brass. She wanted it to go to a young player who would cherish it. My YBS-62 I purchased in 2020 at a Yamaha clinician price. I have been renting the YBS out the past few years to players I know. Mainly studio work. Pays for maintenance and better than kept in a closet. Both horns are still in pristine condition. So both horns have more than paid for themselves and escalated in value since I purchased them. 😎

Being a Bari player may be like being a Trombone player these days sadly. Unless your Leo P!

Depends on the local scene, I guess. You have talked about the inconsistency of yours in the past.

I do agree with your theory, however. A Bari PART is not as common in popular music as it used to be, so it has been relegated to certain genres. But I think in a locality of robust Jazz/Funk/Soul activity, it is still pretty sought after...

 

[JayeNM]

That seems to be the new mentality. All the Gen-Zers and millennials that buy in our neighborhood refuse to water or edge or keep the bushes alive, just barely mowing frequently enough to avoid getting tickets from the city. Some of them are trying the "gravel yard xeriscape" concept but they seem unable to grasp that Dallas, TX is NOT in the middle of a desert. It is grassland, naturally, so when they put their beloved gravel yard in it takes about six months before the gravel is full of weeds, grass sprigs, and little trees growing up from the acorns and pecans. Unlike an ordinary grass yard where you just mow that little stuff off, with the gravel yard you've got to sit out there and pick 'em out one by one. Forever. Or, you do like these Gen Z and millennials do, and just leave it, so pretty soon it looks like crap. Honestly, kids, it would have been a heck of a lot easier to just buy a cheap lawnmower and run it over the yard every 2-3 weeks.

Low A or Low Bb mower ?????

 

[Stephen Howard]

Nobody owns a Thomann this side of pond...my yardstick is simply track record, longevity of reviews.
A bit subjective, yes, but my general approach is a model needs a good 7 years of decent reviews to put it on solid reputation footing.

Find me five or six solid reviews of their low Bb offering from players who have owned one for several years, put it thru its paces, and I'll gladly tip my hat.

Interesting.
I work to a different principle. I examine the construction and the build quality and compare it with the thousands of other horns I've worked on down the years - and then I use that experience and knowledge combined with basic engineering principles to arrive at a conclusion weighed against the price and the performance.
I don't give a great deal of heed to player reviews given that the vast majority wouldn't know one end of a point screw from the other.

 

[Tonehole]

I have a tough time justifying buying a Baritone these days but! I just missed a Jupiter JBS893 pristine for $1,500.00 to fill out my set of SAT. Only 500 made one will show up eventually.

"The JBS-893 Generation (Early 2000s): This was the definitive "Artist Series" baritone. It was highly distinct because it paired a solid sterling silver neck with a silver-plated brass body and gold-lacquered keys. It included a low A key, metal tone boosters, and fully articulated key work. It was produced in smaller quantities because silver-plated, sterling-necked baritones represent a highly niche, expensive slice of the market."

Few SBA's so they go for large collector type money.
Not sure how many Bass saxophones are made but fewer than SBA's were built. .

This is from Reverb = "An original silver-plated Low Bb Selmer Super Balanced Action (SBA) baritone is an exceptionally rare collector's instrument, typically commanding between $12,500 USD and $16,000+ USD (approx. $17,300 to $22,200+ CAD) if it features its original plating."
My "Dreaming" price?

https://www.selmer.fr/en-int/blogs/infos/history-notes-09-super-action?srsltid=AYCX9vJfk0syf6swEPH4xYavJzcGVMhBGcyaMCRn2XvQ5mmLIgEdAV0b

Production SBA = "500 each for baritones and sopranos. Now the baritones introduced their very first Low A baritones in the Super Action. There were only 180 Low A baritones"

So only 320 Low,Bb's SBA Baritones made and few were Silver plate.

 

[thomsax]

The low Bb baritone had a huge impact in Rock & Roll and R&B back in 50's and 60's. The bari made the sound bigger. Maybe a low A bari could do that as well? Listen to Litlle Richard, Fats, Lary Williams ....... the collaboration of a tenor and baritone made the sound bigger.. Sometimes with an electric guitar as well.

"Bony Moronie". Larry Williams. Plas Johnson ts, Jewel Grant bs and Rene Hall gtr.

View: https://youtu.be/QUFH4GcznmI?si=OolzX9Q80oivIBQu


"So Long Baby. Goodbye". The Blasters with Lee Allen ts and and Steve Berlin bs. From the 80's!

View: https://youtu.be/6y4EjAB_0FI?si=o_gndFZjeIz2nU57

 

[Tonehole]

Listening to the Blasters discography. I had never heard them or of them before. Interesting blend I wasn't born yet when they were doing their thing. That bari is working hard.
Thanks for the insight. 👍

 

[turf3]

Well, the reason the low Bb baritone was played so much in early rock and roll is that low A horns were rare and expensive. Most early rock and roll players were not wealthy, so they played used instruments, and used low A baritones weren't around when rock and roll got started in the early 50s.

Today's rock and roll baritone players almost always play the low A, as do the vast majority of professional baritone sax players in all styles of music.

(I play only the low Bb baritone, same horn since 1984, and have not found the lack of the low A note to be a meaningful hindrance, but I'm reporting what the real world is like out there.)

 

[lydian]

Very Interested in knowing how current players can justify buying a Baritone saxophone these days. 🤫

I'm a tenor player primarily who has always loved playing bari. But my local scene is saturated with good bari players. In spite of that I finally bought a used Kessler about 6 years ago. Since then I've worked my way in to 3 bands, on and off. While it took years of gig money to pay off that horn, I just love playing it. So it was totally justified in my mind. There's nothing like playing a great bari part in a big band.

 

[thomsax]

The low Bb baritone was the first choice of many players who were into Rock & Roll. I used to talk about saxes with David Woodford (RIP) and he didn't play a low A. Great saxplayer.

View: https://youtu.be/_0arR_sTX0k?si=oA5L-Ra5A3VdFv6G

 

[Grumps]

Seeing a lot of love for baritones down to only Bb, but quite frankly if you're advising someone young who is going to play written parts with an ensemble.... they'd best be served with one going down to low A.

 

[turf3]

Seeing a lot of love for baritones down to only Bb, but quite frankly if you're advising someone young who is going to play written parts with an ensemble.... they'd best be served with one going down to low A.

Yep.

And the importance of budget on early rock and roll is not to be underestimated.

Most of those early rock and roll sax players were Black, most from the South, most from working class families. They weren't plunking down the big bucks on a new Selmer low A. They were finding used horns in pawnshops, which were Conns and Kings and Bueschers and suchlike.

If you think that they would have turned their noses up at a new low-A Selmer if they could have afforded it, I think you're imposing 2026 attitudes on people living in 1955.

And for that matter, if these guys were playing saxophone in rock and roll bands in 1955, they probably started playing by 1950 or earlier. Most of those early Black rock and rollers started out in the jump blues genre and they were grown adult professional musicians by the time the relatively small changes in style that created early rock and roll came around.

Dave Woodford was born in 1948. He was a toddler when Jackie Brenston recorded "Rocket 88"; he wasn't even in first grade when Elvis recorded his first records. He was in first grade when Bill Haley hit; second and third grade when Little Richard hit. He most certainly was NOT an "early rock and roller". In that video he points out that his low Bb Mark 6 is "the last Mark 6 baritone" so it would have been made in, what, 1973/4?

So Woodford chose, as an adult, long after the development of rock and roll sax playing, to use a low Bb rather than a low A. That's great, he's a great player, but it says nothing about why guys who were taking up baritone in 1950 in Jackson Mississippi or Little Rock Arkansas, and then still playing baritone in 1955 as their bands transitioned from "jump and jive dance bands" to "rock and roll bands" - chose low Bb horns. I suppose a FEW of them actually explicitly tried out both and chose the low Bb. I bet a WHOLE LOT MORE of them bought the horn they could find and afford, and they played it till they felt the need for a new one, years and years down the line.

 

[turf3]

The other thing is, when on occasion I get the chance to mess around with a low A horn, I just don't hear this supposed huge difference in tone quality. Maybe, yeah, the low Bb and B of a low A horn are different. I'd have to do some careful A to B comparison - but up higher? I don't hear it.

I think the fact that I'm usually comparing my Conn 12M to whatever modern low A is in front of me, would be a lot bigger difference.

 

[helen]

Very nice of you to rent out your Bari Sax to players you know. I rent my bass Sax out to players I know as well. Pays for Sax upkeep and general maintenance like yours Tonehole.

I'm primarily an Alto and Tenor player. I dabble on my other Saxophone voices.

I am always amazed that people can rent their horns out. Especially the bigger ones. My bass especially would NEVER get used by anyone other than myself.

I have on occasion let very good pros I work with use one or the other of my horns for a recording project, or for a pit job that I wasn't playing in, but that's b/c I have worked with them for years, and now how they look after their own pro model horns.

But as a rule, if you want to use my horn, I come with it. That's how I make my $$. 😉

Whoa! I am interested in how you have a Bass Sax! That has gotta take up a lot of floor space.
What is a set up on a horn like that cost?

Not sure what you mean by "set up"? They usually come set up--unless they are in need of an overhaul. If that's the case you are looking at north of 2K US+ (depending on what kind of dent & other work might be required).

I reckon that's a bit optimistic.
£250 over here will get you a decent set of tenor pads - so I'd be surprised if a bass set came in at less than £400. Like you say, those big pads get very pricey.

Even in good nick a bass tends to require a great deal more....coaxing. The sheer size of the keywork means there's a lot more flex to take into account - though this tends to be offset somewhat by the very forgiving nature of a bass.
Perhaps the biggest issue is swinging the thing around the bench. I have a separate bench that's much lower than my usual one (which I stand at) which enables me to walk around a larger horn rather than have to swing it over the bench.

A bass in poor condition gets expensive real fast.

I don't do them anymore, simply because I always end up with a sore lower back. I had to turn down an Eppelsheim contrabass job once....just wouldn't have been able to lift it 🙁

I always give my tech a heads up, and he clears room on his bench when I bring mine in. He keeps it for as little a time as possible--often I'll hang out for a day. I also bring my stand so it can be stood up in between.

Since I worked for my tech, and we're also friends, if the horn just needs minor adjustments, sometimes he comes over and I feed him lunch. He brings his tools and he adjusts both my bass and main bari (Black Gold low A Couf). He prefers this since there is no chance of them getting scratched or damaged in the shop.

.....

Dave Woodford was born in 1948. He was a toddler when Jackie Brenston recorded "Rocket 88"; he wasn't even in first grade when Elvis recorded his first records. He was in first grade when Bill Haley hit; second and third grade when Little Richard hit. He most certainly was NOT an "early rock and roller". In that video he points out that his low Bb Mark 6 is "the last Mark 6 baritone" so it would have been made in, what, 1973/4?

So Woodford chose, as an adult, long after the development of rock and roll sax playing, to use a low Bb rather than a low A. That's great, he's a great player, but it says nothing about why guys who were taking up baritone in 1950 in Jackson Mississippi or Little Rock Arkansas, and then still playing baritone in 1955 as their bands transitioned from "jump and jive dance bands" to "rock and roll bands" - chose low Bb horns. I suppose a FEW of them actually explicitly tried out both and chose the low Bb. I bet a WHOLE LOT MORE of them bought the horn they could find and afford, and they played it till they felt the need for a new one, years and years down the line.

Fun fact about Woodford, he reached out to me about 20 years ago. He made the low A extension that I have had on my site--and that I linked to in this thread.

He had been getting a lot of work that required a low A horn, but he didn't want to part with his beloved low Bb Mark VI. He made the pipe extension & it played perfectly in tune and is what he used in his session work.