Saxophones King model 613 and 615?

[Grumpikins]

I would like your opinions on the king (keilwerth?) Saxophones specified above as starter horns. I believe the 613 is alto, the 615 is tenor, is there a corresponding baritone?

The 613 and 615 seem to be plentiful on the used market for under $300. As I understand it these are very similar in design to the super 20?

At this point, I'll be relearning saxophone with the intent to play occasionally in a concert band setting as needed.

 

[turf3]

These are the King Cleveland third-line or student saxophone. By all accounts they're good horns, probably based on the acoustics of the Zephyr. It's not clear to me why H N White would have maintainted the Zephyr as a "second pro line" model with the Super 20 as the "premium model" and the Cleveland as the student model, when they never had that many sales of Zephyrs after the Super 20 was introduced.

I have never seen mention of a King Cleveland baritone; I think that role was taken by the Zephyr baritone, which remained in production, with the same 1920s design, way into the 1970s and maybe the 1980s.

There is no relationship of the US made King wind instruments from the H N White Company of Cleveland and Eastlake, O., and the Keilwerth wind instruments from Germany (East and West). Some Keilwerth models had names like "Tone King" and "New King", that's all.

The main thing to keep in mind is that at this point the newest King Cleveland saxophone is a 50+ year old student saxophone. That means its most likely history involves marching band and middle schoolers. In old horns, condition is everything. Be very careful.

 

[ESJohn]

I own a King Cleveland 613 alto and have since around 1970 when it was purchased new. It was made in Cleveland, Ohio USA. The horn was used throughout my school years in both marching and concert band settings and flew to Toronto with me when our marching band played at Ontario Place. It was repadded in the early 90s when my son played it for a year in his high school band. They were built well and can take quite a bit of abuse. I play a King Zephyr now and have used the Cleveland on occasion such as when the Zephyr is being serviced. I think that it is a very good starter horn. I wish I still had the original case.

 

[Stocker]

There was a Cleveland baritone pre-WWII (model 616) but those are few and far between, and probably little different from the contemporary Voll-True and Zephyr baritones.

Owning both a later (single-socket neck) Zephyr and a 1950s Cleveland, I believe they share the same body dimensions. I don't know how related the Zephyr and Super 20 are acoustically - that's been a source of debate for years.

The post-war Cleveland didn't have any substantive changes to the body throughout its run, just keywork and nomenclature - the 613 and 615 model numbers weren't engraved on them until the late '60s.

Be aware that the model numbers were briefly reused on rebranded Conns after King was acquired by Conn in the '80s.

 

[PigSquealer]

I would like your opinions on the king (keilwerth?)

These were after the 613 & 615. The tenor model 662 made in USA is good quality solid player. Pro level ? Definitely not student level. I have one.
Look for “K” on bell brace. I don’t know the 660 alto origin. This too has the “K” brace.

The 613 & 615 were equal grade quality products compared to Bundy II. They are IMHO very underrated.

 

[JayeNM]

I would like your opinions on the king (keilwerth?) Saxophones specified above as starter horns. I believe the 613 is alto, the 615 is tenor, is there a corresponding baritone?

The 613 and 615 seem to be plentiful on the used market for under $300. As I understand it these are very similar in design to the super 20?

At this point, I'll be relearning saxophone with the intent to play occasionally in a concert band setting as needed.

So....TWO DIFFERENT DESIGNS were sold as the 613. The first was the de-evolution of the King Cleveland, after King moved to Eastlake. So from '67-79 , the horn was first engraved Cleveland 613 and Cleveland 615. At some point in 70s, they dropped the "Cleveland" from the engraving.

They were, again, tge eatlier Cleveland model, clunkered down. Same body and neck specs but for whatever reason the keywork became clunkier and slower. Still never figured outnwhy they did that. They also did it to the Zephyr model.

The Cleves did NOT HAVE the Zephyr/S20 body specs. So, NO, not a 'poor man's S20'. Unscrupulous sellers try to puff them up as this ....but literally the tube, bow, bell and neck specs are not the same...so that is a lie.

Not BAD starter horns, the Eastlake 61X....I mean they sound good, blow freely, intone well. But the key action is Meh.

Now, as noted already by others, there WAS a second design version of the 613...which is actually just a Conn 18m or 20m rebranded...the 'rebranded Conns' Stocker mentioned above....introduced early 80s when Dan Henkin purchased King, Conn, and Armstrong.
Essentially he discontinued the 613 and 615 design, discontinued the Conn 50m Shooting Star... and just took the newly designed Conn models he introduced... and changed a few minor details (guards) and branded them King as well

These are not, um.....good. Probably the LOW POINT, design wise, of the Conn brand. I get he was trying to introduce a 'modern' style horn....but like the Bundy 2...it was a complete 'fall on your face'. Redesigned body and neck tubes produced a thin tone and they give a lotta beginner players intonation problems...the OPPOSITE of what you want a student model to do.


He would have been smarter just have slapped Yamaha copy keywork on the old 613 and Shooting Star body and neck tubes..and used a rights side bellkey bell piece on 'em....those would have really competed, and they had all the existing tooling to keep making those bodies...

The ONLY CONNS made by Keilwerth were the pro model altos and tenors which Henkin contracted JK to make. 92m, 94m, then i think the 1XXm. (not X, i forgot the numerical digit...110m maybe ?). Those are GOOD JK's...but sadly, they could not recapture the upper shelf market Conn had lost thru the 70s.

As @PigSquealer also mentioned, the King brand REBOUNDED a bit after Henkin sold it and Conn and Armstrong to UMI in '84.
UMI wisely ditched the 18/20m/613 dogs ....and produced the 662 Tenor and Empire Alto ( the Conn models 22m and 24m being the same horns, just branded Conn. The Armstrong 3055 is also a King 662 rebranded).

THOSE are all quite decent or better. Arguably NOT pro caliber, but far better than student/base models....they were basically Keilwerth design knockoffs, and not bad ones

So anyways, the Eastlake made 613/615....I put them in the echelon of Bundy 1. Some good things about them, but their prices should be pretty low for one in play shape. $400-450 alto 613...maybe $500-600 tops tenor 615. You see project altos go for $100 and project tenors for $300 on open bidding fairly regularly...

Given my druthers, though, I'd take a Shooting Star over these...

 

[ESJohn]

Assuming you haven't looked at one in person, here are some photos of the pinky keys on a Zephyr v a Cleveland 613.
The G# key is approximately 2.5 cm in length and 1 cm in height. By comparison, the Cleveland 613 G# is 3.5 cm in length and 1 cm in height. I hope this helps. You could probably invest the same funds into a new student sax from China. I'm not certain one choice would be better than the other.
Cleveland:

Zephyr:

 

[PigSquealer]

So....TWO DIFFERENT DESIGNS were sold as the 613. The first was the de-evolution of the King Cleveland, after King moved to Eastlake. So from '67-79 , the horn was first engraved Cleveland 613 and Cleveland 615. At some point in 70s, they dropped the "Cleveland" from the engraving.

They were, again, tge eatlier Cleveland model, clunkered down. Same body and neck specs but for whatever reason the keywork became clunkier and slower. Still never figured outnwhy they did that. They also did it to the Zephyr model.

The Cleves did NOT HAVE the Zephyr/S20 body specs. So, NO, not a 'poor man's S20'. Unscrupulous sellers try to puff them up as this ....but literally the tube, bow, bell and neck specs are not the same...so that is a lie.

Not BAD starter horns, the Eastlake 61X....I mean they sound good, blow freely, intone well. But the key action is Meh.

Now, as noted already by others, there WAS a second design version of the 613...which is actually just a Conn 18m or 20m rebranded...the 'rebranded Conns' Stocker mentioned above....introduced early 80s when Dan Henkin purchased King, Conn, and Armstrong.
Essentially he discontinued the 613 and 615 design, discontinued the Conn 50m Shooting Star... and just took the newly designed Conn models he introduced... and changed a few minor details (guards) and branded them King as well

These are not, um.....good. Probably the LOW POINT, design wise, of the Conn brand. I get he was trying to introduce a 'modern' style horn....but like the Bundy 2...it was a complete 'fall on your face'. Redesigned body and neck tubes produced a thin tone and they give a lotta beginner players intonation problems...the OPPOSITE of what you want a student model to do.


He would have been smarter just have slapped Yamaha copy keywork on the old 613 and Shooting Star body and neck tubes..and used a rights side bellkey bell piece on 'em....those would have really competed, and they had all the existing tooling to keep making those bodies...

The ONLY CONNS made by Keilwerth were the pro model altos and tenors which Henkin contracted JK to make. 92m, 94m, then i think the 1XXm. (not X, i forgot the numerical digit...110m maybe ?). Those are GOOD JK's...but sadly, they could not recapture the upper shelf market Conn had lost thru the 70s.

As @PigSquealer also mentioned, the King brand REBOUNDED a bit after Henkin sold it and Conn and Armstrong to UMI in '84.
UMI wisely ditched the 18/20m/613 dogs ....and produced the 662 Tenor and Empire Alto ( the Conn models 22m and 24m being the same horns, just branded Conn. The Armstrong 3055 is also a King 662 rebranded).

THOSE are all quite decent or better. Arguably NOT pro caliber, but far better than student/base models....they were basically Keilwerth design knockoffs, and not bad ones

So anyways, the Eastlake made 613/615....I put them in the echelon of Bundy 1. Some good things about them, but their prices should be pretty low for one in play shape. $400-450 alto 613...maybe $500-600 tops tenor 615. You see project altos go for $100 and project tenors for $300 on open bidding fairly regularly...

Given my druthers, though, I'd take a Shooting Star over these...

Great informative post. As you know I don’t study much after the US sax production tanked in early 1960s. Yeah, the Conn 24m is a nice solid sax. But I’m thinking out of @Grumpikins budget. I have two.
The pre 1962 Conn 14m alto & 16m ( Director, aka Shooting Star) are still a worthy sax. Within budget and plentiful in decent condition.
Could you list sub $300 decent project horns from 1962- 2000 that are worthy for Grumpikins ?

@Grumpikins , if you see something of interest. Just post the link. Or send one of us a DM & link to review in private.
Lots of quality affordable options. Be patient and you’ll find a good sax.

 

[thomsax]

I like King student saxes 613 alto and 615 tenor. These saxes were sold and made to be a beginner sax. It was never H.N. White and King Musical Instruments Inc intention to be "the same as a King Super 20". This is internet talk. There are many other student saxes that can be good beginner saxes: "Indiana", "Bundy (II)", "Vito", "Amati", "Weltklang", "Jupiter 500", "B&S Blue Label". Many old beginner saxes/student models needs love and care to play ok/well! So don't pay too much. Keep some money to pay to the tech.

To buy a beginner sax is very much what you want to do with the sax. I have sold some beginner saxes suittable to adult Rocksax beginners/"re-starters" (to sell an old sax to a child is IMO not right). There were aspiring saxophonists that didn't wanted to read music and stygy theory, search for perfect pitch ..... the just wanted to have fun and maybe play easy parts/songs by ear or memory without paying too much?

If you want to buy a King 613 or 615 I recommend to search for a late one (mid 70's to early 80's) that not been played too much.

613 and 615 have the the bell keys to the left side of the bell. S20 had the bell keys to the right. S20 had silver soldered tone holes. The last S20 I owned, had drawn toneholes.

Here is a brochure from King Musical Instruments Inc, from the early 80's . 613K and 615K student models.

Baritone model; a design from the 20's but a good singing baritone. King dropped the King Super 20 baritone and gave up King Tempo!!!!

 

[Grumpikins]

So far I have just been online browsing. I have come across 2 Altos locally in antique/bazaar shops. A yamaha something for $200 and I can't remember the make of the other, think it was a shooting star or 613 for $100. Neither had any easy to see major damage. Just a few small dings and lacquer wear. The yamaha didn't have the right mp though. Looked like a baritone mp.

I have a small budget to start with. If i get a sax or two and find im using them more and more, then I'll upgrade. Thanks for the info. Its very good to know more.