Saxophones King 660 - Not sure who made this? King; Conn; Keilwerth; Armstrong...?

[JayeNM]

I measured the diameters of the bell, body, and bow in four zones for three altos, using a caliper
Conn 4М:
1 - 59,5mm
2 - 60,1mm
3 - 57,9mm
4 - 48,6mm
Conn 25M:
1 - 59,6mm
2 - 60,3mm
3 - 58,3mm
4 - 48,9mm
King 670:
1 - 58,8mm
2 - 59,9mm
3 - 57,8mm
4 - 48,7mm

The results vary. And if we consider the data I obtained earlier (post #70), we can conclude that the instruments are completely different. It will be very interesting to see the data for the King 660 and Conn 24M. I had King 660 a long time ago, but I don't have one now. Who owns a Conn 24M and a King 660 right now?

The 25m and 4m measurements...yours above...and your previous ones including the neck diameters....indicate that these are the same design.

The differences/variances in measurements (.4mm maximum you have noted) above) are within variance allowances of US factory fabrication of that time period.

If you say the 4m and 25m play and sound differently, I would next look at the natural pitches of the necks of each -scroll back up to that vid I posted on necks....and see if , after running the tests shown in the vid...what your results are.

 

[JayeNM]

And if we consider the data I obtained earlier (post #70), we can conclude that the instruments are completely different.

Actually...respectfully...no.... your claim is completely nonsequitir. B does not follow A.

The measurements of the 4 and 24 in post #70 and #80 ....thus far ....strongly suggest the designs are the same...not 'completely different'. Those differences in measurements between the two are tiny, tiny. Rather than indicative of a change in spec/design.

 

[silver-sax]

Can you provide the dimensions for the Conn 24M and King 660 (similar to the information I have)?
And it is seem`s to me King 660 is similar Conn 20M ? Please say. Thanks.

 

[JayeNM]

I don't have either Here.... I do recall doing a few Empires and 24m's within a few weeks of each other, and am pretty sure they were the same designs, only difference being the name engraving and the C bellbrace on the Conn, K bellbrace on the King.

 

[PigSquealer]

Try looking at the listings on Reverb for comparison pictures.

 

[PigSquealer]

it is seem`s to me King 660 is similar Conn 20M

The King 660 Empire looks like the same sax.

 

[JayeNM]

Maybe I was confusing the two. I was referring to the Empire being identical to a 24m.

I thought the Empire's model number was 660.

If they used that 660 name on the 20m design, pre-UMI....then that wasn't the design I was referring to.

The 20m design was thankfully retired upon UMI acquisition from Henkin ownership.

So if the 660 looks like a 20m....neither of those are UMI designs. They predate UMI redesign of the lines.


edit - my mistake, the Empire was designated 665...not 660.

 

[silver-sax]

It is a pity that you cannot provide measurements for the key areas of the King 660/ Conn 20M, and Conn 24M (King 665).
Experience shows that even a difference of 0.01 mm in key areas can affect a saxophone's sound.
Did you determine that these saxophones are identical just by looking at them?
I doubt it is possible to visually determine dimensions and speak of identity (or differences) between various models without using measuring instruments.
Therefore, I am waiting for honest and precise measurements for these alto saxophones.

 

[PigSquealer]

Maybe I was confusing the two. I was referring to the Empire being identical to a 24m.

I thought the Empire's model number was 660.

If they used that 660 name on the 20m design, pre-UMI....then that wasn't the design I was referring to.

The 20m design was thankfully retired upon UMI acquisition from Henkin ownership.

So if the 660 looks like a 20m....neither of those are UMI designs. They predate UMI redesign of the lines.


edit - my mistake, the Empire was designated 665...not 660.

662 tenor with “K” bell brace, adjustable thumb rest. Made in USA early 1990’s. No “Empire” engraved on bell.
660 was the alto mate. Also USA made.

King 660 Empire, has K brace. Cloth guard like 20m. No Empire engraving on bell.

https://reverb.com/item/80066766-king-empire-660-alto-saxophone-usa-very-good-condition-with-case-neck-mouthpiece

King 665 Empire, circular “K” bell brace. Empire on bell

https://reverb.com/item/93924615-king-empire-665-eb-alto-saxophone-with-hard-shell-case-gold-lacquered-brass-and-nickel-silver-keys

Conn 24m alto “C” emblem brace.

https://reverb.com/item/92462613-alto-sax-selmer-24m-conn-used

 

[PigSquealer]

Conn 20m triangle shape bell brace. D shape strap ring.

https://reverb.com/item/99148790-conn-m20-alto-saxophone-1980-s-brass-lacquer-player

@JayNM I’m sure with the tens of thousands of beat to death student rentals of these you’ve serviced, it’s become a big blurr. The models that are similar and the name becomes “another one of those”.

 

[PigSquealer]

@silver-sax , good to see you here. I have two 24m altos around here somewhere. If I can locate them I’ll ask for measurements location instructions.

 

[silver-sax]

Thank you PigSqueales for photos.

A riddle.
Who can guess the model in this photo?

 

[JayeNM]

662 tenor with “K” bell brace, adjustable thumb rest. Made in USA early 1990’s. No “Empire” engraved on bell.
660 was the alto mate. Also USA made.
View attachment 36572

King 660 Empire, has K brace. Cloth guard like 20m. No Empire engraving on bell.

https://reverb.com/item/80066766-king-empire-660-alto-saxophone-usa-very-good-condition-with-case-neck-mouthpiece

King 665 Empire, circular “K” bell brace. Empire on bell

https://reverb.com/item/93924615-king-empire-665-eb-alto-saxophone-with-hard-shell-case-gold-lacquered-brass-and-nickel-silver-keys

Conn 24m alto “C” emblem brace.

https://reverb.com/item/92462613-alto-sax-selmer-24m-conn-used

662 I believe was the concurrent Tenor model to the 665 Empire. Good horns, 662's. Some say they may have been identical to Conn 22M but I never had them side by side. 662's had RTH, some 22M's did not. I have never seen a 22M with, but others have reported ones with, so.

KIng Empire and Conn 24M are the same design. If you literally look at the bell posts and escutcheons/foot of the braces of the 24 and Empire, you can see they are the same. Literally, the factory could slap one brace or the other onto same body design.

Indeed 660 was a Henkin era King, just the same horn as the 20M, rebranded. Short lived, thankfully, lol. The Shooting Stars were better Altos, albeit I understand his intention was to create a 'modern' style keywork horn with the 18 and 20.

 

[PigSquealer]

A riddle.
Who can guess the model in this photo?

I have no clue.

 

[PigSquealer]

662 I believe was the concurrent Tenor model to the 665 Empire. Good horns, 662's. Some say they may have been identical to Conn 22M but I never had them side by side. 662's had RTH, some 22M's did not. I have never seen a 22M with, but others have reported ones with, so.

KIng Empire and Conn 24M are the same design. If you literally look at the bell posts and escutcheons/foot of the braces of the 24 and Empire, you can see they are the same. Literally, the factory could slap one brace or the other onto same body design.

Indeed 660 was a Henkin era King, just the same horn as the 20M, rebranded. Short lived, thankfully, lol. The Shooting Stars were better Altos, albeit I understand his intention was to create a 'modern' style keywork horn with the 18 and 20.

Honestly I haven’t studied much of the modern goods. Unless something lands on my bench or abandoned at the door. I don’t readily seek post ‘60s products.
I can confirm that the King 662 tenor has rolled tone holes.

 

[silver-sax]

JayeNM,
You have never held an M4 model in your hands, yet you very quickly concluded that the M4 is the same as the M25 (I find your arguments, that differences in dimensions at key points between the models, don't matter unconvincing).
You wrote that you have repaired numerous saxophones. Can you tell me what is shown in the photo?

Hint: it is an American saxophone (not Chinese).

 

[silver-sax]

Today I'm going to reveal a secret. And I'll describe what's in the photo (post #92)

 

[silver-sax]

Photo of post #92. It is King 660 alto sax.

 

[PigSquealer]

Photo of post #92. It is King 660 alto sax.

I’m not surprised at all. Any idea what year and maker ? Like Vito was made by at least three different manufacturers.
Your thread here is documenting the King 660 and the different makers.

 

[silver-sax]

I was joking a little. It’s not a King 660 or rather, not exactly this model.
It’s a King Super 21. Yes, that’s no joke; it’s a genuine Super 21.
They seem to come in a few variations: some with a solid silver bell and neck, and possibly others with a standard bell (I’m not sure). The guys used a cheap student model alto as the base for this new, exclusive, and rare saxophone.
Photos below.
They took several King 660 altos with serial numbers 730K–735K and modified them.