Saxophones King 660 - Not sure who made this? King; Conn; Keilwerth; Armstrong...?

[JayeNM]

In general, any of the UMI "Conns" are going to be very low market value. If that chart means they were making SIX different models at once, it's not hard to figure out why they cratered.

Only the ' six'were probably just two model designs.....just branded either King or Conn (i.e Conn 24m IS a King Empire, this I confirm.....King 67X was probably same design as Conn 25M, etc, etc....)

So probably 24m was the 'base model', as was the Empire...while 25m or 67X was offered as the advanced model....nothing too strange in that bit of marketing, really. We know UMI did try an intermediate model of Tenor both under King and Conn...

 

[JayeNM]

According to the catalog provided by Thom...the only diff between the King Liberty 670 and the 675 may have been 'adjustable keys' , whatever that means (assuming microscrews for stack adjustment ?)

The only diff between those and the Empire then may have been key finish and presence/absence of high F# (my recollection is the keyguards on the 67Xs were a bit more fancy, aesthetically).

Likewise a 25M seems to have been a 24m with lacq keys and high F#. It sure looks that way in pics, if memory serves.

So ...possibly all the same design just sans/incl High F#, change in key finish, and presence/absence of 'adjustable keys'.

Although @silver-sax says this 25m and 670 'sound different'...which is why I asked (still unanswered) whether they LOOK ALIKE, details and spec-wise.

 

[turf3]

What in the world was a 4M ? Never have I heard of nor seen one...

There was a short lived 5M (very good, sister Tenor 9M) , then the 24M and 25M....as far as UMI Conn altos went....

4M is Bb soprano, low pitch.

 

[PigSquealer]

4M is Bb soprano, low pitch.

Correct. This was a curved SOP.

 

[PigSquealer]

According to the catalog provided by Thom...the only diff between the King Liberty 670 and the 675 may have been 'adjustable keys' , whatever that means (assuming microscrews for stack adjustment ?)

The only diff between those and the Empire then may have been key finish and presence/absence of high F# (my recollection is the keyguards on the 67Xs were a bit more fancy, aesthetically).

Likewise a 25M seems to have been a 24m with lacq keys and high F#. It sure looks that way in pics, if memory serves.

So ...possibly all the same design just sans/incl High F#, change in key finish, and presence/absence of 'adjustable keys'.

Although @silver-sax says this 25m and 670 'sound different'...which is why I asked (still unanswered) whether they LOOK ALIKE, details and spec-wise.

I don’t see a 25m listed ?

 

[thomsax]

What in the world was a 4M

UMI CONNquest Model 4M Eb Alto: American design, high F#, seamless neck, offset octave key, new keywork design with teardrop design auxilary F, alternate F# spat, separate G#/Bb adjusting bars, adjust links for F,G#,C# levers, adjustable bumpers, articulated C#, adjustable thumbrest, clear laquer over spinfinished American brass, laquered brass keys, ribbed bottom bow guard, professional mouthpice, deluxe hardshell gig bag.

UMI was formed in 1985 and 12 years later they had a new altos. They days with water downed Conns were over. In the early 80's we had to sell overpriced Conn Directors saxes and talked about the good old Conn saxes from past!!!! UMI ttred and they did pretty well I think.

I don't know why they used old model numbers on the thier new saxes. To call a Conn Alto for 6M is logical to me. Maybe CONN 6M, CONN 10M, CONN 11M and CONN 12M are protected trade marks?

 

[silver-sax]

Hi, everyone. I’ll try to get the key dimensions for these “new” alto saxophones (bell diameter, neck tenon diameter) for the Conn 4M, Conn 25M, Conn 5M, and King 670 soon. By the way, does everyone know that the Conn 5M comes in two versions- one with rolled tone holes and one with the standard ones? The first four altos are very similar, with modern balanced mechanics. The Conn 5M is very similar to the Armstrong models from the 1970s, but with a half-ring between the bell and the body like the Couf 3200. You can view photos of the Conn 4M on Ebay.co.uk (I assume U.S. residents won’t be able to see this listing on eBay).

 

[JayeNM]

Hi, everyone. I’ll try to get the key dimensions for these “new” alto saxophones (bell diameter, neck tenon diameter) for the Conn 4M, Conn 25M, Conn 5M, and King 670 soon. By the way, does everyone know that the Conn 5M comes in two versions- one with rolled tone holes and one with the standard ones? The first four altos are very similar, with modern balanced mechanics. The Conn 5M is very similar to the Armstrong models from the 1970s, but with a half-ring between the bell and the body like the Couf 3200. You can view photos of the Conn 4M on Ebay.co.uk (I assume U.S. residents won’t be able to see this listing on eBay).

5M and 9M were very Keilwerthesque. Armstong also knocked off some JK details but make no mistake, the Conns were different beasts. Refined keywork, quite slick. The BEST Tenor ever marketed by Armstrong besides the real Coufs) was the 3055...which is a pretty good horn. But the 9M is way beyond a 3055.

 

[JayeNM]

Correct. This was a curved SOP.
View attachment 36194
View attachment 36195

This doesn't list any UMI made model

 

[JayeNM]

Hi, everyone. I’ll try to get the key dimensions for these “new” alto saxophones (bell diameter, neck tenon diameter) for the Conn 4M, Conn 25M, Conn 5M, and King 670 soon. By the way, does everyone know that the Conn 5M comes in two versions- one with rolled tone holes and one with the standard ones? The first four altos are very similar, with modern balanced mechanics. The Conn 5M is very similar to the Armstrong models from the 1970s, but with a half-ring between the bell and the body like the Couf 3200. You can view photos of the Conn 4M on Ebay.co.uk (I assume U.S. residents won’t be able to see this listing on eBay).

Since you have a 25m and a 4m and a King 67x would be really helpful measured dimensions.

 

[silver-sax]

5M and 9M were very Keilwerthesque. Armstong also knocked off some JK details but make no mistake, the Conns were different beasts. Refined keywork, quite slick. The BEST Tenor ever marketed by Armstrong besides the real Coufs) was the 3055...which is a pretty good horn. But the 9M is way beyond a 3055.

May be 3050 model (not the 3055)? Of course, it's all very subjective, but I think the 3050 model with silver-plated (!!!) keywork is a very good model.

 

[JayeNM]

UMI CONNquest Model 4M Eb Alto: American design, high F#, seamless neck, offset octave key, new keywork design with teardrop design auxilary F, alternate F# spat, separate G#/Bb adjusting bars, adjust links for F,G#,C# levers, adjustable bumpers, articulated C#, adjustable thumbrest, clear laquer over spinfinished American brass, laquered brass keys, ribbed bottom bow guard, professional mouthpice, deluxe hardshell gig bag.

25m has a lot of these features...compare 25m pics to @silver-sax 's 4m, they do not look dissimilar based on what one can see in pics. The 'new keywork design' noted in marketing blurb above ... Teardrop F, high F# & the VI style linkage on pinky is all that jump out at me as different than a 24. Adjustable links specified above, appear on both 25 and 4...as do adjustable bumpers and thumbrest.

 

[JayeNM]

May be 3050 model (not the 3055)? Of course, it's all very subjective, but I think the 3050 model with silver-plated (!!!) keywork is a very good model.

There was 3040, 3050, 3055. They all pop up on ebay somewhat regularly. The 9m was way more refined an instrument. I do agree, the 3040-3055's can be a good buy.

 

[thomsax]

Armstrong and Keilwerth had an on-going business on from the mid 60's. Later on also "King" (KMI). And Conn as well. H N White started to collaborate with SML back in the early 60's. I'm not sure Indiana saxes was a 100% american product? Kohlert (Winneden), Hohner, Keilwerth (Nauheim) and Hammerschmidt made saxes with bevelded soft-soldered toneholes in the 50's. The internationalization started already in the 50's. The Marschall Aid was the big "generator". In the 80's the globalization became a reality. Saxophone manufacturing was not an exception.

 

[JayeNM]

You can tell the diff between a Keilwerth made Armstrong (the Heritages and Coufs) and an Armstrong made one which just knocked off Keilwerth specs...

The 3050 and 3055 were the latter, I think. Although I suppose it is possible the bodies were JK, but usually they would have JK serials then...

 

[silver-sax]

I have Armstrong 3050 tenor with serial 30-XXXXX (1980 year) and early had with s/n 29-XXXXX (1979 year).
I see 3055 of two types (difference in body bell brace - "early" - just a straight brass rod, and the “later” ones - a triangle)

 

[silver-sax]

Several photos of 3040, 3050 and 3055 models. 3040 and 3055 with nickel plated keywork. 3050 - silver plated. Photo from Ebay, Reverb.
3040 s/n 28-XXXXX, 3050 s/n ???, 3055 s/n 43 40261 (early), s/n 745607 (late)

 

[silver-sax]

3050 model

 

[silver-sax]

3055 s/n 43 40261 (early)

 

[silver-sax]

3055 late model, s/n 745607