Saxophone beginners Kicked out of jazz workshop

[AlonW]

"Alon: Thank you so much for attending the workshop. My general feeling is that your next step is to work with a good tenor saxophone instructor who can help you build a stronger foundation on the instrument. This workshop is designed for intermediate to advanced players who already have those fundamentals in place, so I believe your time and investment would be better spent focusing on one-on-one instruction first. Once you've reached that level, I think you'll be in a much better position to benefit from what this workshop offers."

 

[David Roach]

Probably good advice. But did they allow you to complete the workshop? Or did they actually kick you out? I think that's the important point.

 

[Colin the Bear]

To move to the next level we need first to find what level we're at. Grasshopper 👶

 

[AlonW]

Probably good advice. But did they allow you to complete the workshop? Or did they actually kick you out? I think that's the important point.

The workshop happens every week. I am not allowed to come back.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I don’t know why you would say you were kicked out or that you are not allowed back.

It sounds very much like you weren’t kicked out but very politely and sensitively informed it is not for beginners, and once you have progressed to the required level you will be welcome back.

Did you try asking if you could turn up as a spectator? That might be beneficial so you can see/hear the kind of things they are teaching or workshopping. It

 

[AlonW]

To move to the next level we need first to find what level we're at. Grasshopper 👶

I don’t know why you would say you were kicked out or that you are not allowed back.

It sounds very much like you weren’t kicked out but very politely and sensitively informed it is not for beginners, and once you have progressed to the required level you will be welcome back.

Did you try asking if you could turn up as a spectator? That might be beneficial so you can see/hear the kind of things they are teaching or workshopping. It

I know I'm good enough not to be bothered by the petty criticism of a teacher who thinks he knows it all. After this happened, I was thankful I didn't have to return to the workshop and have to go through watching this guy tear apart musicians. Even my friend, a long time pro, who sings, plays guitar and tap dances got chewed out and promptly left.

The irony is the jam session I go to, which after three times has been going better, happens at this same venue. But it is completely unrelated.

I think the teacher is just unhappy and on an ego trip. He doesn't want to help people by giving them the space and encouragement they need to grow. He wants to tell them what they're doing wrong, not what they're doing right. The thing is, part of learning this music is understanding that creativity comes from the heart, not the mind, and the heart needs love to feel good and be nurtured. A good teacher knows how to give and take. Give some love, respect, and encouragement, but then correct the student with a kind attitude when appropriate. I didn't get that energy from this workshop. The teacher never stopped to compliment me on anything I may have been doing right. A compliment should be unconditional. There was none of that. Not once, not with a single person in the room. So I'm glad I left the workshop. And even though this happened, I thanked the teacher and told him I knew I was a beginner, and wished him well.

 

[progger]

I cannot imagine a more polite and constructive way to deliver that message than the quote you posted. Maybe that teacher is unpleasant in person, but that was exactly the right way to say what he said, IMO.

If that workshop isn't a good environment for someone because of personality clashes, that's reason enough not to go back. If a teacher's personality really doesn't work for how a particular student learns, it's not a good fit, and that situation should end. So, either way, sounds like a positive result! 🙂

 

[Mix O Lydian]

@AlonW does your jam session have a teacher or is it a group of your peers? I would take the feedback, there is nothing to lose in getting more tuition to work on weak spots that you might not be aware of. There is always more to learn. That feedback may have stung a little I imagine, but there is always more to learn, even pro players have tuition.

 

[mizmar]

This workshop?

I went to a workshop at the World Stage today

 

[Colin the Bear]

I think a teacher who knows it all is a treasure. I've never known any one who knew it all. I've met loads who knew better than me.

Some people need to find their own path, happy where they wander and not wanting to follow conventional routes. A person like this can be quite disruptive in a conventional teaching environment. I think I was.

Some people can't hear it and don't get it. Those of us that do get it and can hear it, can only point in a direction that may be helpful.

 

[mizmar]

This workshop?

I went to a workshop at the World Stage today. The energy was great,

 

[Pete Effamy]

Some people can't hear it and don't get it. Those of us that do get it and can hear it

There's only one "it" ?

 

[cappers]

I know I'm good enough not to be bothered by the petty criticism of a teacher who thinks he knows it all.

Sounds like a workshop run by Terence Fletcher.......

You gave it your best shot, thumbs up for trying Keep on truckin'!

I saw an ad for an improv workshop near to me, run by a renowned sax player. I asked my teacher (who knows him) whether I should go. He replied that it might be too steep a learning curve for me at present, as the entry requirements were very good reading skills and a solid understanding of chord progressions etc approx. grade 5+. Like your workshop facilitator, he suggested waiting until I have a stronger foundation. Fair enough.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

If you can only play one tune, with feeling and expression, and have practiced a few improvs, to take it around to tell your story, in the well used keys/tempo, you're good to go.
If you can't do that, getting Fletcherized, is appropriate. 😭
Just one tune, is all it takes. 🎯
It all depends on the goal of each workshop/jam.
Check them out, and if you are not ready, learn and practice.
Delusional, is not a plus.
Musical comedy, on purpose, works. 🤡

 

[Colin the Bear]

There's only one "it" ?

It's impossible.

 

[ellinas]

If I was doing that workshop and realized someone is not able to cope with the advanced concepts, I would at least let him stay and listen.
The coin has two sides.
Musicians can get better by playing with helpful advanced players.
But sometimes they can slow down other people's process. This is not bad. This makes wanna become even better!

Charlie Parker got rejected and came back as the jazz monster we all know.

Try to find musicians that are helpful and help you elevate. Teacher or players.

Not all educators have the patience to get you there.
Some are best for beginners, some are best for advanced players and really few can take you from amateur to pro.

Sometimes the critic can be negative but.... it can point us to nearest point that needs improvement.
And here's my story...

I had formal classical piano education. And I have toured, session recorded playing the organ and guitar in RnR setups for years and internationally... That would make me a competent musician to switch to jazz saxophone ... wouldn't it?

Well not. Switching from polyphonic instruments to a very sensitive woodwind, challenged me not only as a musician as a person too. Articulation, pitch .. breath stamina ... swing feel ...they were things I really "thought" I could grasp, until a professional teacher in my early steps took me by the hand and switched my mindset.
He could identify weaknesses I couldn't, he could analyze embouchure pitch, position, and teach me how to effectively improve. Listening to my early recordings I though I was superstar but honestly I was a small disaster.

A public jazz impro workshop that helps people dial in diatonically with chord scale theory is much more easy to grasp
and achievable to a much wider audience than one that explores awkward secondary dominants, exotic minor modes, altered-diminished pathways all sort of alterations. And crazy rhythms at 160bpm.

It might need some preparation in the shed before you attend in order to enjoy it. That's not a bad thing. That's the challenge!

If I were you, I would ask him to list the top topics he thinks I should improve and that he thinks I'm not ready yet.
Rhythm? Tone? Speed? Accuracy? Prima Vista? Swing feel? Knowing by heart a lot of standards? Does his workshop require a minimum grasp of theory? harmony? anything that's listed in modern jazz theory books like Mark Levin's? or Jazzology?

If he's a good educator he should give you some basic directions.
And you can always come back when you're ready and show him who's the boss 👌👌👌👌

 

[Grumps]

Just find another one... and wear clothes next time.

 

[JSL]

"This workshop is designed for intermediate to advanced players who already have those fundamentals in place, so I believe your time and investment would be better spent focusing on one-on-one instruction first. Once you've reached that level, I think you'll be in a much better position to benefit from what this workshop offers."

Sounds to me like excellent advice and he was doing you a favor ^^^^^^^^^^^. You can take it or leave it, but I think you should at least consider it.